Blake: Welcome everyone to the show. Today we’ll be having a talanoa on what is the key opportunity you see as a future focus to support Pacific success. What does the future hold for our Pacific learners and are our learners equipped for the careers of the future? So let’s kick off with our first question.

You and your wife, Parehuia, have been education leaders for a number of years, and co-principals of your school in South Auckland, and which is rich in its approach with Māori and Pacific learners and their families. The question you have brought to the table is, has the Westminster model of education past its use by date?

Now, first of all, I have no idea what Westminster is, so you can start off with that maybe?

Ala’imalo Falefatu Enari: Fantastic, nor do I, but I hear that’s the model we’ve been operating under for a long time. But I think the purpose of me stating that question, Blake, is this. Don’t we have a time such as now, this time right now, with all of the pandemic and the recalibration of what our norm is, is this not the time that we get in there and make some changes, some systemic changes? ‘Cause why fix things within the system when the system isn’t for us? It’s a Eurocentric system. And so if we break that down, elaborate on that: Eurocentric, meaning our kids go to another culture and engage into an education journey in another culture. Well, we have the opportunity to create education systems that are Pacific centric.

Blake: And so you’re talking about the mainstream education – could you tell us a little bit more about Pacific Advanced Secondary School and how what you’re doing there is different from that mainstream first?

Ala’imalo Falefatu Enari: So basically the opportunity was put out there to create an opportunity for our people, by our people. Tatou mafaufau i mea nā. You think about that for our people, by our people, e fōfō e le alamea le alamea, you stand on a crown of thorns, you flip it over, you put your foot back on it, and it heals itself. We have the solutions to our educational journey and our educational outcomes. And so to create an institution or an organisation or an organism, that is there for our kids, well then we’re starting in the right place, rather than trying to fit our ideas and our values into another Eurocentric system.

Blake: And what are some ways that you deliver that to your community?

Ala’imalo Falefatu Enari: Manaia le fesili. First off, co-principals? Fa’atamā, fa’atinā. So straight away, the model there is about family, then teachers, uncle and auntie. Some special ones get a māmā title, māmā loa. They can otegia anybody from the top right through to the bottom. We have systems where we have village systems, where we have one teacher for 13 kids and they’re responsible for wellbeing. How can we expect our kids to dream if they’re in survival mode? So for seven years we’ve been feeding our kids, breakfast, lunch, everybody eats, no one brings in any food on site. There’s no stigma to it. We eat together because ai fa’atasi, that’s the time to talanoa.

Blake: For the rest of the panel, do you have any views or perspectives on all Ala’imalo’s question?

Ezra Schuster: I think it’s a great question and I think what Ala’imalo has put to the table really is something that's really topical at the moment. Not only just for Aotearoa and Pasifika, but actually an important global question. I think what the pandemic has done, it’s done a number of things, but it has raised the question around what is the purpose of education? And it's also reinforced as well, is that the whole focus, certainly, this government has really talked really strongly about Aotearoa New Zealand histories and the importance of local curriculum. Also, I think what PASS has been able to do is think about what does the curriculum look like for them, and a sense of ownership within their own community as well. But, shaping it in a way that's unique to Pasifika values I think is something really important as well. So I think it's an important question and important opportunity. Not, as I mentioned, not just for Aotearoa, but I think it is a, it is a question being asked of many jurisdictions across the globe at the moment.

Serena Curtis-Lemuelu: I think from that border concept, I mean, there is a lot of discussions at the moment about where solutions are best fitting in terms of local solutions, community solutions, who's the right people to determine what is the right solution for their whanau, for their wider extended community. And what we are seeing, if you could just look at Covid recently, all of the mobilisation, all of the response really was done by community, for community. And without them, I don't think we would've had the result that we've had within the New Zealand setting. So I think the by Pacific for Pacific, by Māori for Māori, it was a conversation that probably was had a number of years ago. And it's resurfacing and I think it's something that every sector needs to look at alongside education. And that whole holistic approach, rather than a siloed approach is even more evident now and, being something of the broader solution.

Blake: Awesome. So really great talanoa today on that question, because we talked about how values is at the heart of that approach of being responsive to our communities, to our learners and their families, and thinking about the holistic approach of that, you know, it's not just about the learning that takes place inside the building, which is a school, but it's actually about how to get to school, where they go after school and, and those things. Ala’imalo can you tell us a little bit more about how you think we, we acknowledge the system is broken, but how could other people, other schools in the community adapt the way that they teach and deliver learning to students based on the methodology that you use at PASS?

Ala’imalo: Yeah. Look, we've only been around five minutes, so there's no way I'm waving a flag and telling other institutions who've been around 70 years and more. But it is, we look at it from this point of view: the kids in your school, where do they come from? And are you trying to fit them into your perspective or are you trying to know their perspective and allowing them to come in and be all of who they are?

So we are blessed to have a board with Sir Michael Jones as the chairperson. He's been brought up by a village. And he's reached his full potential. And his heart is that every child in Aotearoa, no matter what their circumstances, has the opportunity to reach their full potential. And it's a time, o le taimi lava lenā e tula’i ai le toa. Because we're going to look back in years to come and go, way back then, society was changing, recalibrating. What are we gonna do about that recalibration? Who's gonna step forward in their different arenas and change things?

So why carry on trying to fix things from within something that overall needs some recalibration? And we all have ideas. The ideas are here: re-indigenising our curriculums. But just the soft skills of our parents coming in and seeing ourselves in the driver's seats, coming in and being able to speak their language at the desk, at the front desk of the school, speaking on the phone, knowing that the person on the other side can talk their language. All those things soften up the engagement and sharing the same values as them not having to explain their values to people who are running things. We just need to be in the driver's seats. And I think there's enough people now in driving seats and it's time to work across Ministries and 'cause wellbeing is at the forefront of our kids learning. They have to be well for them to dream.

Blake: Serena, welcome. The question you brought to the table is about strengthening the capability and resilience of our Pacific communities. What have we done? What are we doing and how will you know it's making a difference? Could you share a little bit about the work that you do?

Serena: Yeah, I mean, I'm fortunate enough at MSD to be responsible for the implementation of Pacific Prosperity, which is our strategy, Pacific strategy and action plan. And also to have an additional portfolio around community capability. And so I feel quite blessed in terms of being able to weave in two passions of mine. One in terms of Pacific, but also supporting our Pacific communities to be stronger, and more sustainable in the work that they do. And so, I think going back to the conversation we've just had around Covid and the huge amount of work that our communities did, it's really important that as government agencies, we find the mechanisms and opportunities to continue to support them to do the work that they do. Whether that be collectively, individually, I think if we go back to the feeling of wellbeing, we need to take a more holistic approach to how we support our communities, our families, and our people.

Things that the Ministry are currently doing may seem minimal at the moment in regards to our commitment to Pacific, but we are putting in place key activities to ensure that at least we are engaging better. We are recognising what they say is important rather than what we think as a government is important. We are strengthening our promotion of materials, ensuring that we are translating them, you know, into nine Pacific languages. I mean it's a start in regards to what we think we can contribute to ensuring that our people are informed, and have all what of what they need to be able to do a great job and continue to do the great job that they're doing. So it’s you know, it would be selfish to say that we are the ones that know best and actually it's important to recognise the value that they have and continue to support them in what they're doing.

Blake: Well, well done. And you know, we've seen the community has seen a lot of the great work that the Ministry of Social Development is doing. Can you give us an example of a case where you've seen some of that capability pretty much come to fruition especially during COVID-19?

Serena: Yeah, I mean, we've been really excited about some of the use of some of the Covid funding in our Pacific space, supporting community connection services, which is, you know, very much, could be tied into the continuation and leveraging of what we've been doing around Whānau Ora. But it's about making sure that we have the right resources in our community to support our people and to spaces, not so much that they have to go to the system, but the system comes to them. And, you know, when we talk about the impact of Covid on our people from an employment perspective, many of our people had to reduce hours or they were in industries that actually could not continue. And so it's really important that we had the right resources within the community who could talanoa with them, who could engage them, without them feeling like they had to go to our offices, in a way that made them feel still empowered, and able to continue through their aspirations. So community connection service was a big one for us.

Also the release of our community grant funding, which basically said, you tell us what initiative you want us to provide funding for and we know we have no judgment, you know what you're doing, you know what works for your community and we distributed funding. And I think the best thing about that was we worked really collectively with a whole range of agencies from MOE to MPP, DIA, Te Puni Kōkiri. So I think from that perspective, we did the right thing from a government side of the table.

Blake: Kind of goes back to our previous mention of the village: the village supports to make everyone move forward.

Serena: And understanding what role you play. You know, as I say before, in the past we probably were very much seen as strong decision makers and prescribers. And actually during Covid we needed to take an enabler and a facilitator role and supporting role. And I think the key thing now is to ensure that we continue to leverage off those kind of functions and roles without taking a step back and, and going back to what we previously knew as normal.

Blake: And I love your question 'cause it talks about, you know, capability is connected to resource like funding. But also what you've mentioned that the relationship is, is a key way, an important part of the success of what that looks like. The rest of the guests, if you wanna just comment on that, Alaimalo?

Ala’imalo: Ia, lo’u fa’asoa itiiti lea, I think it’s the va tapu, malo sis so exciting to hear all of that and the rugby career as well. You know, it's just making me feel inadequate here. But, you know, hearing all of that, so le va la tatou, our va tapuia with, lets say just le va fa’afeagaiga with our taxes, and so now the issuing of our taxes back to us, instead of saying, well, we're gonna come in here and offer you some assistance, you know, your people and we'll help you out. No, no, no, tupe a tatou, this is our money of our malo, of our country, and here's how we are sharing it out so that we are all well, and it's a soft change of perspective and positioning. So mana enhancing is what I'm hearing from you ah sis, and it's so that everyone's mana is intact. And so we have all of these systems and access, but it's the access, e fetaue le, the joint. Sorry, I'm more pictures and analogies, and can our people access it?

Serena: We have a shift within the Ministry called Kotahitanga which is about doing things together, working together. And I think it's important that we show in practice what that really looks like.

Blake: There’s some really good co-design principles that we can very much implement in other spaces, are you able to….

Sina Aiolupotea-Aiono: Yeah, I mean all praises to the MSD, they did a fantastic job. I think the Covid experience was a real disruptor. It allowed our Pacific communities to come to the fore. If you think about Pacific leadership, we saw that Pacific in the system. Other public servants like ourselves were able to say, this is actually what works for our people. We saw Pacific providers, many are first generation born like us from the islands. You know, CEOs now you saw the Fono, you saw South Seas, a lot of those Pacific providers came and they were delivering Pacific Futures Limited. So you suddenly saw a shift in who was leading, who was providing the solutions for our people in order for them to respond quickly to Covid, but also the recovery efforts that are going on with the community.

We also saw the importance of language. And I know that things being raised several times, our languages were the avenue for us to ensure that the messages were getting across to our communities across New Zealand. We also did joint efforts around Zoom forum around the lockdown, where we had nine languages, you know, fono in those languages and continued translations and just in the way that, that our people are able to receive information effectively, our community connections and teams. So, you know, I think, COVID brought a very good opportunity for all of us to jolt the system and really rise up Pacific people and our communities. I've gotta give thanks to our churches who just did an awesome, fantastic job. And our Pacific providers just fabulous, just couldn't ask for more. I mean, they were the ones that saved, you know, they are the champions for our communities and that really put them out into the before the government and all the leaders, could see that.

Blake: And as a church person, I was privy to one of those Zoom fonos and it was really, really helpful for my congregation to know that we felt supported in that way during the response as well. So malo. Ezra?

Ezra: Firstly, I think it's fantastic that MSD an agency as big as it is, has, Serena, as a senior manager who's Pacific, and I think it's a sign of the evolution of our communities that we've been able to reach a really senior position. So it's fantastic. Also want to point out that I was in the first, second 15 for Jean Batten graduate school, 1979. So no it’s great. Serena said something really critical, and I think our role is as probably public servants, is that the role of the enabler. And so our job is to…'cause the leadership is actually with communities. And I think what MSD and MPP and others really demonstrated and showed is the power of knowing the right people and the connections, having those networks, and giving them not just control, but also the power. And that to me is, that's a difference between the transactional to the transformational change that is happening.

And so the enabler of having communities, having church groups, giving them the opportunity to support their own communities, I think is really important. MSD did that exceptionally well alongside their community partners as well. So, you know, I really applaud the work there in that space. But it has really shown that my segue from, you know, our previous conversation about how communities are wanting to take matters into their own hands 'cause they know their communities best.

Blake: And I think that's a really good segue into your question that you brought here At The Table, which is around our merging Pacific communities outside of the big metro centres, Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch, for example, Rotorua, Oamaru just to name a few. Your question is being Pacific in the regions, what are the needs, responses and solutions, especially in these environments like Covid 19?

Ezra: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I bring quite a different, perspective too because I was born and raised in the biggest village in Samoa in Mangere in South Auckland. And so going from a large metro urban setting, high concentration of Pacific, to the regions, the issues, the problems and the challenges are the same. The scale is different. And I think it's really important to note that, and I probably didn't appreciate that as much when I was in Tāmaki, working in Auckland with a lot large Pacific communities. And you sort of think actually the issues and challenges are just here. They're not, they're everywhere. But it's also saying that not any other challenges there, but also there's fantastic things happening outside of the region. So I think those stories need to have a big light she on them so people can understand some of the potential that is in the regions and how Pacific people can take advantage of them.

Blake: That's pretty important thing for us to kind of acknowledge, eh, is that the issues that you see in big centres is the same issues that you probably experienced in the smaller centres. Can you share with us just a few examples of different pilots or projects that are happening that are finding success?

Ezra: Yeah, I mean there's, there's several, and I mean, it's a great question too, Blake, because I think, you know, generally when we think about our Pacific communities, you think about the big three really, which is, you know, Auckland…But even if you think about Auckland, there's different parts of Auckland. You know, you think about Manakau West, Manakau East, what happens in West Auckland. But then, you think about the big three being Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch really. There's a couple of examples within the Bay of Plenty, and although the Pasifika population only makes up 3% of the population within the Bay, or just under 350,000, there's some really quite really fascinating, innovative things that are happening alongside tangata whenua, which I think is quite unique.

And I think it's important because it talks about the relationship that we as Pasifika people have within Moana-nui-a-kiwa and we're part of this wider Polynesian family. And so the innovation that I've seen, particularly in Tauranga and parts of the Bay where we have some of our local trust working alongside iwi providers is fantastic and I think in many ways, harks back to some traditional ancient ways of how we used to operate. Probably, an example that I think has really demonstrated a real leadership is particularly in the Waikato region with K’aute Pasifika and the work that they're doing there, establishing a Pasifika centre in Waikato, and even though it's a stone’s throw away from Auckland, I think what they've been able to establish there is fantastic. And I think, all credit goes to Rachel and the team for how they've been able to mobilise that community and many ways work alongside Tainui and a number of the others as well.

And so there's some great examples I know from an education point of view that the Pacific Innovation Fund that has allowed and really exposed some of the really great things happening in other parts of the country, like in Otago, where there's some great initiatives happening there with the local Pasifika community in Palmerston North where, you have a number of our local Tongan and Samoan trust working alongside schools bringing their communities together. So there are some good things happening up and down the country.

The exciting thing I see though is the huge investment that's happened over the last five years, particularly in the regions around supporting economic development. And I think areas like aquaculture and horticulture where I think the potential for our Pacific, our communities, and we’ll be talking about STEAM later on in the sessions as well, you know, the importance of sciences, importance of areas like horticulture, which is one of the biggest economic drivers within the country and opportunity that I think our Pacific students can take advantage of as well.

Blake: And are you seeing that in the smaller centres? You know, I guess what you would say the traditional Pacific careers that it's quite different in emerging centres?

Ezra: It's growing. I think traditionally our people have centred themselves around mainly the social sector and understandably 'cause we think that the journey that our forebearers and our grandfathers and grandmothers took to come here, they looked after themselves a whole sense of wellbeing that Serena talked about, and so we tend to concentrate around the social sector, which is fantastic, but I'm starting to see and hoping to see more of, as our communities mature, evolving into other sectors as well. And so the social sector, we are well represented doing some fantastic work there. Love to see that same sort of growth happening in other sectors as well. Certainly in horticulture, certainly in the Bay where that's a really big, really huge, economy. Love to see some of that. So it's there. I think it's there though for us to take advantage.

Blake: Thank you once again, panel for your discussions today. It's really been an enriching conversation around how we can be future focused in the education system. Fa’afetai tele lava mo le tatou polokalame mo lenei aso, manuia le aso. We look forward to seeing you next time At The Table.

Recap:

Ala’imalo Falefatu Enari: This time right now, with all of the pandemic and the recalibration of what our norm is, is this not the time that we get in there and make some changes, some systemic changes? ‘Cause why fix things within the system when the system isn’t for us?

Serena Curtis-Lemuelu: I think the by Pacific for Pacific, by Māori for Māori, it was a conversation that probably was had a number of years ago and it's resurfacing and I think it's something that every sector needs to look at.

Ezra Schuster: I think traditionally our people have centred themselves around mainly the social sector and understandably, but I'm starting to see and hoping to see more of as our communities mature, evolving into other sectors as well.

Sina Aiolupotea-Aiono: Look, I’m really excited by what Ezra had to say about the regional, and we can see it, the growth in our Pacific communities across the country. I remember, MPP, we had developed our Lalanga Fou vision from the voices of the communities of the regions in particular, so you know from Invercargill through Oamaru, through Palmerston North, up through Nelson Marlborough, so I’m excited by the opportunities. And really I think MPP is looking at the opportunities there are for our Pacific peoples in the metro areas to perhaps look at opportunities in the regions for housing.

We also have a programme that’s rolled out across the regions, we nationalised that most recently, and that was the result of government funding and investment from Covid to be able to expand across the metro areas but also into the regions and grow it. The programme is a training and employment placement programme for Pacific needs. It was 15-29 years old, that was the eligibility, but it’s since expanded to no age cap. And what we’re actually finding is young people participating with local Pacific providers but also families, those of our people who have lost jobs or lost income from Covid have been able to join the programme and kind of learn as a family. So we’re really excited by that particular programme and the fact that we’re able to fund more of our Pacific providers across the regions to deliver, I think that’s a great opportunity for them to be involved in the economic development and economic recovery in those regions, be able to deliver services using the languages and the culture and the values in the way that our people thrive on.

So I just want to add that to Ezra’s talanoa about the regions and the regional growth, and the number of opportunities that are available for our people, and recognising that we don’t forget all of our people, they are strong communities, they are different, we’ve have the same things but they’re part of our plan, and across government we work well with MSD and MBIE in particular to expand those programmes, recognising our people in the regions and the beautiful places that they live in. I would rather live in the regions than where I do.

Blake: I probably could afford a house in the regions, because I’m from Auckland, but really, fakaalofa lahi atu for that because it’s a really good way of thinking, you’ve noted different voices and different needs as well. Serena, did you want to share a little bit about some of the approaches that MSD is doing in the regional communities?

Serena: Yes, I think it would be fair to say that we have probably really invested in those three areas that Ezra has talked about, because we see that is being where most of our Pacific people are located and live, but the reality is that the struggles of our people who are living in the regional spaces are just as needed, need just as much investment and I think one of the things one of the things we’re really looking at, at the moment is our service mapping across the country and ensuring that wherever our people are, they have options and choices to the same types, access to, same types of services as those who are in those urban settings that have probably an over-saturation of services have, can access.

It’s really important to us to make sure there’s equity across the country for our Pacific people. How they’re founded is quite interesting, because just through the grant process we’ve seen that a lot of those smaller regions, their innovation is either very pan-Pacific, or as Ezra alluded to, they’re with our tangata whenua, so their ability to collaborate and connect in different ways is quite interesting in regards to what that looks like for the future of their community. So it’s quite an exciting space to be in, for me and my team at the moment, in terms of what do we need to do to help enable, facilitate and support those regional spaces as much as continue to sustain our support within those really big urban spaces. So I think it’s definitely something as a government we need to think more about where we invest, and to making sure that everyone has that equitable share of access.

Blake: Malo, Ala’imalo could you share?

Ala’imalo: Yeah, malo le fa’asoa, mania manatu and your lopa earrings is making me hungry. But you know I tell you what, all of these ideas and initiatives are fantastic, but o le fa’upuga mo tatou it’s the way it’s worded, it’s the way it’s connected, that if our people don’t have access, waste of time, manaia le idea, manaia le initiative but how do they access it, it’s the soft skills of delivery, it’s the soft skills of accessibility. And so the regions have the opportunity to learn from Auckland, to learn from the bigger centres, and to not re-do it, ia fou le lalagaina o le fala, aua ne’i toe lalaga fo’i le fala tuai, we are over the falapapa when a ie toga down there for those people so they can show their mana, he mana to te tagata, every person has mana. The mana of mana whenua I think is really important. I just picked up on that. We know our place with mana whenua, we’re mana moana, and our people need to be able to engage with mana whenua with mana, and then we move in a really positive direction.

Ezra: Yes listen it’s a fantastic subject, and I really want to acknowledge the work that MPP and others are doing leading this space as well. I think the topic around STEM is really critical in terms of the world become a lot smaller, and the opportunity for us to reset. Probably two things for me: one is I think is the future of work, just how critical that is. One other thing that New Zealand has is a very permissible education system. That’s my fancy palagi word for today, which basically means that we’ve got a curriculum in Aotearoa that’s quite open and flexible, probably more flexible than a lot of people realise and so my challenge to the system, for all of us really, is ensuring that our children and young people can have access, and we’ve got to make our curriculum relevant. So things like digital technology and STEM, isn’t just the purview for those at the upper end of secondary school. We shouldn’t have to wait for that.

Actually things like digital technology, science, all of those areas that we’ve touched on, those are things that actually could be very incrementally integrated into Te Whāriki which is early learning, all the way through to the New Zealand curriculum as well. Because it talks about not only the future of work, but actually opening up our communities’ eyes to other opportunities that are out there. And so, really the challenge is really encouraging is hearing the mahi that PASS are doing, That Ala’imalo is talking about localised curriculum, talking about a values-based way of doing things, and I think ensuring that we are localising those things and making relevant for our children and young people is really critical. And that’s it goes back to the adage that education can be a powerful tool but shouldn’t be something that’s done… it’s fantastic that we engage as many of our people as possible, but it shouldn’t be something that’s only taught and focused on in senior secondary school, it’s something that should be encouraged all the way through the system as well.

Blake: And that’s what we were talking about during the break, with that it’s not just those formalised subjects that you teach at school, but STEM is in what kind of examples that you were saying, Sina, during the break? STEM is an app, creating an app, it’s software, it’s gaming.

Ezra: Just one further thing as well. One of the things we talked earlier on about Covid being the great disrupter. It’s also a great opportunity to reset things and what happened is that no one heard, we I didn’t really heard of what of a Zoom was, until this time last year and so the opportunity for us to do things and learn things, not just confined to a classroom, I think is out there. So the opportunity to not just think about STEM subjects as something classically that you do with the confines of four walls, access to technology as others are doing as well is something really important.

Ala’imalo: Manaia le manatu. I love the sharing lou afioga Aiolupotea. So we take STEM and I always put it back into my eyes, ula vale, sitting in a classroom so hard to do, I’m a young boy, learning needs to be meaningful, so you take the periodic table, oh god man that’s worse than aoga faifeau afterschool you know, times tables and a’o le a ma le b, you take that and you bring it alive. So at PASS we’re looking to manufacture waka ama, because the carbon fibre is the perfect atom, it’s got the perfect structure of an atom, that’s why it’s so tough and so light. But can you imagine taking a boy who’s out there on the waka ama every morning, 6 o’clock in the morning, they get up for this, and they do it, but then we go to manufacture it and then you slip the learning in. Instead of bringing the learning as the major part. So these are soft skills again.

So the beautiful turn of policy, the beautiful turn of initiative, but if we’re not upskilling our practitioners, and we’re not desystematising them. I seem to be going back to this point again. I love the work of Dr Michelle Johannson, with Ako Mātātupu, she’s bringing through a new breed of teachers, and they’re very heavy on social justice so that their empathy and their perspective, they’re not standing on the mountain looking down on the water, they’re in the water, they’re of the water, they’re from that space, or they have a heart for that space. So the learner has a natural connection. So you the take the whaka and build the waka and then you go into the teaching. While they’re standing there waiting for their turn on the waka, what do our kids do? They dive under the pontoon, they come up with oysters, I’ve seen this. So the next part of the science, let’s taste the oysters to see if they’re any good to eat. So they’re alive, and they’re in it, they’re in it.

Blake: That’s the biology I want to take.

Ala’imalo: Exactly, and so we need to change our perspective and our approach to it. And the mat needs to be brand new. We can’t carry on, we got to and tied up the old mat, finish that, and that was for the season. And now is the time, there’s chaotic disruption going on out there, and that’s when opportunity steps forward. E to'atele toa lo tatou atunu'u. We got a lot of Toas out there from all over the Pacific, and I think our ancestors have done their work, and it’s our time to do some work. Fa’afetai.

Blake: Malo. Serena, Aiolupotea alluded to MSD doing some work in the STEM space?

Serena: I suppose when you look at our apprenticeships and trades, and the relationships with employers with regards to our employment programmes, we’re trying to broaden our scope and in our partners space, and I think that’s really important. So I suppose I just wanted to touch on the relevancy of teaching and learning and the importance of that for our young people. You know I’ve talked to many young people in my young career, and what they keep saying is let me see them. Let me see people I can, you know we’re very visual people, so you know if we can build that 2% to be 5% to be 7%, we’ll have more opportunity to see more of our people in that space.

You know the relevancy is really important because you know they want the practical skills of life you know, so if you can combine the two that’s awesome because they love waka ama, but they love learning. You know how do you continue to combine what people are passionate about? We learn that very late in our lives what we’re passionate about, but these young people they’re digitally literate, they live with their phones. And I think, if we can bring their world closer to them as being acceptable and actually that’s the way forward, we’ve got so much hope for the future.

We’re still trying to bring traditional old school stuff into a world that has transformed and evolved, and I think when we talk about STEM it’s really exciting because the possibilities are huge. So I think it’s the relevancy and what’s more important is to them, not to us, and that’s the stuff we need to stay focused on you know. We’ve had our lessons, we’ve had our life journeys, we’re still going through it, and as you say, anyone can still be a life, I see myself as a life learner, but let’s not forget who we’re doing this for. And that’s really important, the relevancy has to be close to them. Like we said about our community, to what the community wants to do, this is what the young people want to see and do.

Blake: Malo for your perspectives on STEM because I think what we’ve learnt from that, is really personalising, localising curriculum based on our indigenous history, and just making STEM fun, because you know whenever I heard STEM I was like I can’t count, I can’t build something, I can’t do any of those things, but actually from that conversation, it’s a lot more real, and a lot more, yeah the potential to dream.

Serena: You see young people use STEM for sports stuff, right. They love their rugby, and they’re using STEM technology…they’re combining stuff, they’re able to combine their passions, and that’s what I love about this opportunity, it’s not foreign to them really. It’s actually us, again going back to mana enhancing, empowering them and saying it’s good, keep going.

Ezra: Serena, Blake, also raised a good question, a good point too. And that is, the importance of having the voices of our young people. We tend to in education, certainly in government, we talk about the adults do a lot of the discussion. And sometimes we forget, similar to how we engage with our communities, the voice of our communities, and those that we serve, and I know growing up in Māngere back in the 70s and 80s my experience as a first generation Samoan are completely different. Where you know, most of us, parents told us what you were going to do. So I think an opportunity to consider and rethink things like STEM and so forth are really really important, but also having the voices of our young people. Because they should inform our practice, the way that we teach, the way that we operate, the way that we manage our resources to ensure that at the end of the day it’s supporting those that we serve.

Ala’imalo: Tasi lava le manatu, sorry. The decision making is then influenced from economic outcome. And so we’re an industrial model. If we’re going to be heavily directed by economic outcome, then we’re going to carry on this cookie cutter industrial model of education. But if our focus to give our kids access to an education of which they’re passionate about, will they become productive citizens? I think from ourselves we can say yes we will. But in the current model we’re saying the kids are uninterested, and STEM is for “academic” kids. Ia oki akoa le isi vaega and yet those guys with the practical skills, given it in a context, would be able to access this. And so I just think the purse string holders are still going to be the ones directing what comes out at our end, at the front line, and if we can get the different perspectives at that purse string area, and then things will open up.

Blake: Thank you once again for joining us here today and being part of our talanoa At The Table. Thank you for your personal experiences and stories, they have deeply enriched our talanoa. May God bless you and your families and be safe and prosperous. Fakaaue lahi mahaki. Thank you for joining us today, it’s been a great opportunity to think about how we can better prepare for our Pacific learners in today’s education system for tomorrow’s future focus. I hope you were able to grab a few tips from our panel on how to better yourself or your child’s educational journey. Fa’afetai tele lava mo le tatou polokalame mo lenei aso, manuia le aso. We look forward seeing you next time At The Table.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Welcome everyone to the show. Today we'll be having a talanoa on what is the key opportunity for Pacific language and immersion education? Fa’atili. Your school in South Auckland is an exemplar on how language is critical to learning. The language of child is proficient and is essential for learning to happen and could be a solution for improved learning achievements for Pacific children and academic, social, self, linguistics and societal benefits.  What solutions do you think we need to achieve this? 

Fa’atili Iosua Esera: How do can we achieve this is actually by promoting that and promoting it the way that's actually supported within schools, within the education system, which for years, that has not been the case. We say that language first and foremost is for learning, and therefore the, it's our children should actually hold onto their language and add English on the top of that, and it actually empowers them if they actually speak two languages in two languages proficiently right through. So the aim of the whole program is that both languages are very strong at year eight, so that we get up to speak Tongan or Samoan, it’s at the same level as you would when you get up to speak English. And that actually empowers somebody to actually be a better learner. 

Some of us don't even know what it's like to be a monolingual learner, but most of us are blessed with being bilingual and we are able to learn better.  At the same time, we are not neglecting our language when we go to the Samoan things, when we go to a Tongan things, you can actually speak, or we go to Māori things, you can actually get up and speak the way a Tongan should speak the way a Samoan should speak in front of people.  That is very important to us so what's happening now with our children, they in the past, our children go in, they learn to speak Samoan, they come out of the education system and only speak English and very pidgin English at that for some or most of them and very pidgin Samoan.

The other benefit for us now is that our parents now can effectively advocate for their children's learning because they understand what's happening in schools.  Whereas before that, most of our parents came from village schools, their English is not that great and they cannot, they could not advocate for their children's learning. So proficiency in both language for us, is the only way forward and the government should look at developing the number of teachers, developing the resources or the things that we actually have to promote our Tongan and Samoan kids to be able to speak that.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: That's awesome. And I think, so tell us a little bit more about your school. It’s located in Mangere, Sutton Park School?

Fa’atili Iosua Esera: Sutton Park's in Mangere and we've got the biggest Tongan bilingual in the whole country.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: How many kids in the unit?

Fa’atili Iosua Esera: In the unit we only allowed 200, but, the Ministry wouldn't tell you that every year I fortunately I'm able to actually overstep though and tell the ministry some stories of why we've gone over 200.  So currently we've only got 8more positions left in the whole unit.  And all our children are jam packed in there. So that…

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: And there's a demand from the community for

Fa’atili Iosua Esera: there’s demand there are Tongan coming from all over the place and they're not even, they don't live close to my school.  So if you come from outside our zone, you've got to go to Sia ua, which is the Tongan bilingual, or you go to the Masina Va’aia for the Samoan bilingual. But you can't come into Sutton Park unless you go into those.  So we've got the bilingual in Tongan, bilingual Samoan; both run on the same sort of approach so that they can be twin proficient when they get to year 8.  And then we also have Rumaki Reo, and that's a different approach, immersion all right to year 6.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: I'm really interested to think about you know you commented a specific approach for a specific community. How important is that to be true in terms of helping support that language development?

Fa’atili Iosua Esera: Yeah. Well, we have to we have to appreciate the fact that they’re children that come with linguistic diversity in places like Auckland. There are children come with real strong in Tongan, some with half Tongan, and then some who actually would like their children to speak Tongan, all at different levels. So likewise with Samoans, so the approach is different. It's that it's basically immersion right through all the way to year eight, but different levels of immersion. So for the first year, it's only Tongan.

If you want your child to come to Sutton Park School, the first year until we say to the Akoteu, don't practice speaking English to the kids, speak Tongan, speak Tongan, sing Tongan.  Likewise, we say to the aoga amata, speak Samoan and sing Samoan, read Samoan.  It's only because when they come to the school, it's only Samoan and it's only Tongan.  So the first year is that, and then we split as we go through but it's still immersion approach.  So we have a 50/50 carry at the moment for our senior kids, and they have five weeks of learning in Tongan and there after that, they go to the other room where they only learn in English.  And likewise, Samoan use the same approach. So we have about 50/50 carry from year four onwards.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: That's really exciting.  And, and there's a considerable difference.  I mean, you've been an educator for many years, but you've seen that the, the power and beauty of having children learn their indigenous language, affects their identity, their confidence.

Fa’atili Iosua Esera: Of course. I don't think, I mean, people should actually see that, you know?  And because we say to our children, we don't want to smell Tongan or look Tongan, or look Samoan, you've got to be Samoan right through. A lot of our kids now, they look Samoan, but no Samoan at all. You know, or you, or you put them in front of a matai or put in front of a church, they can't even speak the way we want them to speak.  And mainly because they Samoan in colour, but not no Samoan in a lot of our children. And, and that's because of the education system they, they came through.

Dr. Sala Tagoilelagi-Leota: There's a lot of questions a around the issue of this transitioning from, uh, Aoga amata or Pacific ECE to bilingual, but I'm keen to know the organisations, what are our community NGOs who support this movement so that the schools do have that voice from the community. At the moment we’ve got FAGASA, uh, what about the other ethnic groups? Do they have that organisation? We need to build the community capacity and bring them forward because their voice, they're the closest to the pulse of the grassroots of language where language is alive. We need that voice and to support Aoga amata, Akoteu, Punanga reo and all the way to our bilingual and to the secondary schools. 

Secondly, if we get those organisations all done, then we can get away from all this clutter of new words. You know? Now with COVID-19 and the new words that come in, we don't have the terminology for unmute and mute.  What are we going to do with, we have to prepare our children and, and through the languages so that we have the words for that.  Otherwise, we do this one thing and digitisation brings in the English, but we don't have a term for it. So there is that, it's, it's a universalisation of our languages so that they remain intact and they're sustainable.

Dr. Lesieli Tongati’o: Seems to me there's a lot of great work happening at Sutton Park. Do you follow these children through, when they leave Sutton Park School, do you know what the impact of bilingual education has been for them in their learning in the future?

Fa’atili Iosua Esera: Just a simple answer. We do, we actually get a feedback. We try and trace where they are, mainly because, I mean last year was the first time in the history of Sutton Park that a child that starts at Sia Ua came right through, we tracked them right through, became the dux. And not just a, a dux, it was just clearly she topped the English and she topped the Tongan - writing and reading.  So she topped the maths as well.  So, and we track our children.  They actually, the stumble block now for us is that our children that graduate, they go to college, they go to college with a higher level of Samoan, higher level of Tongan and there's nothing in secondary school for some of them. So most of them actually sadly drop out, but academically they continue to do well.  So my wish is that we continue that journey, have a pipeline for Tongan language right through to year 13 and a pipeline for Samoan language right up to year 13. So it's a challenge that we putting to our secondary schools to make sure that that continues. And there are a lot of other politics around that.

Dr. Lesieli Tongati’o: Can I ask just a quick follow up question. Is every Tongan child at Sutton Park in the Sia Ua?

Fa’atili Iosua Esera: No.

Dr. Lesieli Tongati’o: Right.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: So they can choose either bilingual pathway or mainstream.

Fa’atili Iosua Esera: Well, there must be some Tongans that are just like Samoans, because we think that you need to speak English to be get anywhere in this world well I said there are a lot of English speaking people without degrees and unemployed out there so, and really saying to our parents, saying to our children, said, why would anyone employ you? If you turn up and look like Tongan and you can't speak Tongan, said why would we employ you if you're Samoan and you can't really speak Samoan, they've taken away that advantage of for our kids.  So yeah, it's actually an education thing for our parents as well to say Yeah, because there are quite a few Tongans, there are about 300 Tongans in my school, and I'm only allowed 200 to, but when we have a lotu in Tongan Lesieli, I tell you what, you might as well be in the cathedral.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Malo for that. Well that kind of segues naturally to John's question. So John, you and your wife Judy, have had an extensive career in promoting the importance of immersion and bilingual education.  Your question is focused on the need to develop and implement a range of forms of enrichment and bilingual immersion, biliteracy education, which uses Pacific and English languages as mediums of instruction and enables our children to live here as bicultural bilingual Pacific people. Could you share a little bit about how that comes about?

John McCaffery: Yeah, Talofa lava, everybody and, uh, thanks to everybody for the opportunity to be here today. Our approach really comes from the evidence that's emerged over many years about, the successes that come when children become bilingual, when they can hold onto their family language, and they can add another language to that.  And it's not new. It started in French Canada in the 1960s, and I was lucky to be a student in the early seventies at university to be able to have access with that through the Council for Educational Research.  And so for a long time it's been pretty clear that for many, children, who speak a language other than, at home, other than the one that's being used at school, it's a great advantage for them to be able to retain their own language and to be able to use it for something useful in life. And so that's been, been our attempt has been to examine that evidence from international settings and to bring it here and to encourage New Zealand to explore it.

And so we really need to congratulate the current government and the Ministry of Education for the initiatives that they’re currently making. I mean, this is really an exciting time and it's been developed on the basis of good sound research and evidence. And I'm just confident that's going to be really profitable for all our kids and, and I have to declare that our, our own children are both Tongan, Samoan and Irish. And our grandchildren of course are the same.  So we have a personal stake in it, but it's not so much the personal things I wanted to talk about today, really just to assure parents and community that there is a very strong research and evidence base to the things that the Ministry is going to be undertaking and congratulating everybody involved.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Awesome. Thanks John. 'cause I think going back to what Lesieli’s counter question to Fa’atili around, yes, it's great building that foundation during the early part all through ECE right through to primary school. But then beyond that, how did it actually impacts and affects, uh, their confidence in navigating the education system?

John McCaffery: Well, I mean, what, what hasn't been announced publicly, but you know, I’m happy to do it today, is that the Ministry has made a commitment to develop a policy and that policy means the links between aoga amata and the primary bilingual and the links between primary bilingual and secondary, and the allowances and all the things that will come with a policy. 

Fa’atili Iosua Esera: I think the challenge will be politically and see how that will pan out, because if it's not declared as a policy, then the Ministry will do accordingly.  So if you're confident it's going to be announced as a policy, then we expect that, can we expect that there'll be resources put into that?

John McCaffery: Well, I would expect that, I mean the policy division of the ministry came to the meeting with the bilingual schools at MIT and gave an assurance to the schools that that policy would be developed.  And we've since been told that the cab, the paper cabinet paper on it has gone to cabinet. So you can't do things without budget.  So the logical thing would be that it will be in this year's budget.  I'm not a mind reader, of course, and I have no other information, but that'll be great, you know, and hopefully it'll be a partnership between us, our communities, our organisations, and the Ministry to develop that and that was something that I think all of us would welcome.

Dr. Sala Tagoilelagi-Leota:  My take on that would be bilingual has been operating for, you know, almost 30 years…

John McCaffery: 34.

Dr. Sala Tagoilelagi-Leota: 34, same as Pacific ECE.  What have we developed in regards to frameworks or theoretical perspectives or theories that have cultural knowledge of Pacific underlying those theories, that are pertaining to Aotearoa rather than claiming the international, I mean, they were good at, you know, at the time, but what's, maybe if we start using our frameworks, our own words, and then that we have the complete buy-in from the community, and then we'll have a nice transition all the way.  At the moment, we keep citing the international gurus of, you know, from Sweden and Finland. But what about Aotearoa, you have done that, all that work.  I think we need to, to have a framework from Aotearoa owned and driven for our, our children bilingual education.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Our own best practise.

Dr. Sala Tagoilelagi-Leota: Yes.

John McCaffery: Absolutely.

Dr. Lesieli Tongati’o: I think that support, fully support that's really, really, you know, developing policy from an authentic Samoan, Tongan, Niuean, you know Tokelauan authentic lens, rather than having someone develop policy for me.  You know what I mean? So yeah, I'd hope that they'd gone through all of those processes, but that's where we are coming from.  And, and of course we learn a lot from Maori, what's been happening in their journey, and we don't want to get to a stage where we've lost it all and then try to reclaim it back.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: So Dr. Sala, your question is about how language transitions from home to aoga amata should be encouraged and language assessment and Pacific education is urgent.  What could these transition transitions and assessments look like?

Dr. Sala Tagoilelagi-Leota: uh Faafetai lava Blake, language transitions do not go alone because you cannot separate language from culture.  So cultural transition goes alongside the language as well because it is the culture that it’s the language that delivers the culture. So the speakers, you would need the speakers, the culture and, and cultural knowledge, the depth of cultural knowledge that children bring with them when they come from home. You know, ECE calls, Kei Tua o te Pae, their learning stories beyond the horizon. How true is that?  When we assess children, when we don't know who they are, what is their tofi? What is their suli, what is their gafa, what is their fa’alupega, are they a feagaiga? Those are all the children's cultural voices that represents their cultural rights? And is any assessment able to pick all that up?  How true are we to Te Whariki social cultural curriculum? And if we can, if we can do all that, then, at the moment we can't. There's new assessment tools coming left, right, and enter in ECE, it tries, you know, the efforts are there, but are the efforts genuine or are the efforts just  a snapshot? I mean, are we true to beyond the horizon so Kei tua o te pae - are we able to get the voice of the grandparents, the voice of the ancestors, the documentation, the learning stories, the portfolios that children have in the aoga amata, nothing says about all these cultural rights that children have.

It's always link it to Te Whariki, link it to Bronfrenbrenner, link it to Vygotsky, what about our rights, our human rights, our cultural rights?  So that's what I want to emphasize with our,  an assessment tool. We've been here over 30 years. We are confined to the learning tools of what, what is brought to the, what is made available to us. But it doesn't stop us from innovating and knocking because there is, there is, now openness of Ministry for the voices of Pacific children to be included.  How can we make these transitions more sustainable? From aoga amata, there is Te Whariki, you have one curriculum that is so flexible because it's social, cultural based, and then you children enter into the compulsory sector where the curriculum is very, very much structured.

And so the children come from a play-based, ECE, and they go into the and they want to play some more, but it's not, it's maths time, it's, you know, so there needs to be an alignment between the two curriculum. The training - there is absolutely no training for Pacific ECE now, and there's no training for our, our teachers, our bilingual, you know, so where can our, our teachers be, provide quality teaching and using the depth of cultural knowledge, because that is the, the driving tool of our, um, of our learning. 

The other one is assessments. As I've talked about. We assess, we assess in English, in aoga amata, it's Samoan, they come to a Samoan, bilingual they have to achieve in both English and Samoan. At the end of the day, I heard a parent say, at the end of the day, English dominates. So, but that, that relies on that depends on how, how the teaching is done. So there is an element of resources. We need an overarching body of Pacific language that can be the, you know, where our dictionaries are so that we can have the name for peach in Tongan and in Samoan. And we say the same thing here in, in Auckland and the same thing down in, in Invercargill. At the moment there is a clutter of language that we are confusing the children more so, rather than a an a standardized assessment tool and a uniformity of the words that we use right across New Zealand for our words, so that our children are not confused.  So that's my,

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: going back to that, the comment that you made about that parent saying that English takes precedence, what do you think influences that?  Is it the system or is it their ex own lived experience through the education system?

Dr. Sala Tagoilelagi-Leota: At the moment, the, the sites that are promoting the languages is at school, and our aoga amata research has said not at home.  The children are speaking English at home. 

So, it's the Pacific ECE centres and also our bilingual that's promoting that cultural transition and language transition all the way to the other levels. Now, my research says it is inevitable, but it's very vulnerable.  So, which means without the tools, the assessment tools, without the resources, without the qualifications, without the training, without a good alignment of the two curriculums, no point.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Malo, Malo Dr. Sala, We've talked about transitions, we've talked about, and now you've just brought to the table those differing assessments frameworks that don't connect together. What are your thoughts on that?

John McCaffery: Well, there's also philosophical and ideological things because up until now, the policy of the Ministry is still that children who are in Pacific early childhood programs should be transitioned to English, Medium schooling. So, the books, the materials, the dual language text program, the philosophies are to prepare children in early childhood for transition to English schooling and while that was fine in the early days of migration, there are now of course bilingual education options. So this is a policy issue, which is why policy is so important. And of course, if you don't have some policy about what the purpose of them and how the transition is going to happen, then yeah, it's very hard to make it happen successfully.  But it will happen in the current work that's being done. I mean, the mo the money that's coming from the ministry through the current projects are exploring that and hoping that it will lead to those kinds of solutions. So, and as people said, this is the first time that any government has funded these sorts of explorations to make those links. So I'm very hopeful that, that, uh, Sala and others around this table will be involved in that work.  You know, as much as is possible over time.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Thanks for your comments, John.  And I feel like that you memorize all the Ministry's policies and legislation cause he's like, as the Ministry said I'm scared to speak on behalf of the Ministry. Cause you'll probably revert it back to me.  Lesieli, any thoughts on Dr. Sala’s…

Dr. Lesieli Tongati’o - Yeah, I think that that's really important because,you know, where, while the curriculum Te Whariki are quite flexible and you need to make that work for your service and for the children and their parents, you know, so you just want to make sure that all the tools are available and, and that's where this is coming in, so that you can see the pathway through aye, but as I'll be talking, you know, and I, and that was my question. I want to, to say that we as Pacific people need to own this. We can't always wait for policy. Policy can go in different directions. Where am I in this? That's my, my question. I am who I am. I'm Tongan first and foremost, and Tongan is my first language. Okay I'm a bit better in English now, but I still make mistakes. But I'm not sorry about that. This is who I am, and I would like the environment, everyone around it to accept me for who I am aye. That I can do just as well in education as anybody else.

And that’s the thing that I would like to encourage, enable our people to be great in who they are. And of course, our parents, we all want the best for our kids in the end they go to English speaking bilingual schools and early childhood services. And so we want the best for our kids. And so the evidence is when you're strong in a first language, you can add on any other language in your development and your career pathways. But you know, we need to be okay with that ourselves.

And that's where one of the things I was showing you earlier is we run our Talanoa Ako program in the Tongan language in Otahuhu, and one of the things I've been showing the parents there is that I’m saying to them, look, where are your Tongan values are absolutely important alongside the evidence that tells us what's the best ways of contributing to success. And they were absolutely, you know, learning a lot from that because they think, I’ve got to leave my being Tongan here and I go to school and I be someone else. And I mean, we hear all these stories, you know, these students in Auckland don't turn me into a palagi for goodness sake, because the schools early childhood service. Yeah. When you come here, leave your Tongan-ness out there and you come here and you behave differently and all of that.

To me, I'm saying, no, please, I am who I am and I'd like all of our parents to be enabled and encouraged, okay to talk in Tongan, you know. And, and that's not just for our Pacific parents, for every, the whole community. So if I'm walking down the street with my husband talking in Tongan and people listening to us, that's okay. You know, they won't turn around and say, oh, stop it, kind of thing. And I remember way back in the day when Karl Pulotu-Endemann and myself, and Tiumalu Kuresa Fale, we walked down the Palmerston North Main Street. They were in their Samoan clothes, yeah ,lavalava, I was in my Tongan ta’ovala and we were walking down the street this is a very small Pacific community, but we were trying to say, "Hey, this is who we are". We are all okay with it.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Mālō tau lava. Today we've had a very in-depth talanoa about the importance of Pacific language to us as Pacific communities and you touched earlier about the importance of being proud of it in non-Pacific communities.  But your question you brought here at the table focuses on how Pacific people must lead this work using collective action to promote languages nationwide in partnership for all New Zealanders. How can this be achieved and what actions should we be talking about?

Dr. Lesieli Tongati’o: Malo ‘aupito, malo ʻi he faingamalie. Yes. I was, been reading quite a lot of, lately about the importance of language and I'm thinking, you know, John mentioned policy a lot as we were doing what's happening in early childhood services and in schools and my thinking is that we need to be enabled to be encouraged to use our language and whatever language that is, because that, that's really, really important. If we don't use it and we don't promote it in our homes, in our families, what's gonna happen?  We are going to lose it. And that's what I'm thinking, you know, let's own this, but in order to own it, and I'm sure a lot of us already own it, but we are still conscious that other people are not okay with it.

And so then we tend to embrace it in bilingual services, embrace it in early childhood services, embrace it in churches, and we go to church and it's total immersion in those languages. But that's what I'm meaning, you know, we need to own this. We are okay with it, we feel okay with it. And then the whole environment around the country and everybody else, you know, we do absolutely pay respect to the formal languages of New Zealand, te reo Maori and English. But we are also saying, okay, we've chosen to come to Aotearoa and we bring a lot of histories with us. What's gonna happen when we lose our language? We're gonna lose those histories. And so for me, one of the things that I'm thinking about, and I think it's been mentioned before, yeah, why, why don't we, you know, write our own stories and have that published. We don't have the resources to publish it.  How would the education services think about that?

You know, I remember going to a service in Blenheim, a Tongan service, and they, one of the biggest issues was lack of resources for early childhood services. And so this mother was saying, hey, my child told me the story. And so I suggested to her, okay, can you help your child write down your story, bring it to the center and see if they can just, yeah, it's just a photocopy of the story. But imagine if that was turned into a little resource book in Tongan and so this was the stories that the mother, the parents were saying at home. The child is repeating it at the centre. How great is that? You know? So the environment, and I know we are very multicultural, multilingual these days, and, and often people will rely on the aoga amata and the ako lea faka tonga to teach Tongan and Samoan, you know, but that's what I'm saying. 

Where are we as parents, as communities in this, I know it's a very busy world, but I think we need to come together as a collective. We can do this. We know our communities, we know what works. And so give us a chance to do this. You need to enable us by making, helping New Zealand Aotearoa to become multicultural, multilingual. And I know there's been several events lately that has brought that up into the, fore, and of course, language is always changing. I mean, Sala talked about, you know, Covid and all of that now coming, there's no specific language in, in some of those, but language is changing. And the more, a Tongan word is used, it becomes normal.

You know, I remember when talanoa was not, you know, community created that word, and we just used it, and it became normal. You know, like Pasifika, it now becomes normal. The, you know, you create or you try to translate an English word into Tongan and then, uh, the more you use it, it becomes normal. So I'm, all I'm saying is that our parents, our community, our whanau, our kāiga needs to feel okay in who they are, and for that to be okay, we need other people to feel okay with that. And so in their homes, if Tongan is the strongest language please speak it to your kids because that's got benefits.

But I know the environment is all in English, you know, TV's in English, you know, all of these channels. And so that, that's how I look at it as a collective we Pacific people, we know that from the last two censuses, the number of people, proportion of people, Pacific people speaking, their language is dropping. And so the signs are there, it's gonna be lost or getting diminished as the day goes by. So that's where I'm coming from. Let's encourage, enable our communities to be okay with it. We know what works for us. Why don't we run it that way, you know what? But all we need is to enable us with the resources to be able to do that and to produce the resources that we knew that are multimedia. And of course, helping our young children educate our older elder populations in all of these multimedia mediums. But at the same time...

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: And I love like you said, enabling…

Dr. Lesieli Tongati’o: Yeah.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: And that, you know, you're talking about technology as well, how that can also improve access. And I recently zoomed with a group of Tongan parents and they were, look like they're between 40 and 60. And they seem way more natural than maybe some younger people that have experience on using that technology. So enabling is a really key part. And thank you, malo for your talanoa. Fa’atili, did you wanna share a bit about, how and through your comments, sir, your experiences of enablement in your community?

Fa’atili Iosua Esera: Yeah, and I think New Zealand as a whole would benefit a lot if we actually enriched New Zealand with our cultures. Because after all is said and done we are actually part of the moana that all belongs to us. It's our side of the world and we need to enrich New Zealand with things Tongan and things Samoan and things Pacific. We don't want New Zealanders to actually think Tongan, a good rugby player. Oh, Samoan, perhaps netball. We don't want New Zealand to think that we are only netballers and rugby players and league players. We are actually academic beings and we can actually enrich this country by allowing that to happen. And we can cross pollinate. There are a lot of us in, there's more in common for us.

And that's where I'm in a privileged position where I see that in our school. So when we have manuhiri come to our school, our children know, because the Tongans, we ask them, Tongans, what do you say when we have a lot of manuhiri at our school? What do you say when you walk too close? Are you allowed to? They said, no, what do you say?  We say tulou and I turn around to the say to the Samoans, and what do you lot say when you walk too close to people? they said, well, we say tulou as well, where do you walk? We walk behind them. I said, well, listen to me. 

So Sala talk about the culture and our cultural rights to actually our children that come with them, you know? And that's what that's what it means. But unfortunately, it's a village school's mindset versus the Westminster mindset.  And I'm sorry, Sala, it's not part of the national standards.  It's not even part of the curriculum. So we don't really worry about, you know, where you come from and your village, and yet what we're saying to our children is no longer okay to say that you are Tongan. It's not inadequate to say, I'm Samoan. You've got to know your village.

You've got, you know, your mum's village and your dad's village. You don't know their fa’alupega, and who's, who are the matais in your village and where’s your house? 'cause in Samoa, there are no streets. If you go, where's your house?  Your house, is it number two, number, no, you've got to know your house. Otherwise, you go to somebody else's house. Oh, I'm sorry Sam, you're in the wrong house. Your house is over the road, you know? And that is something about our culture. You've got to know where your real estate is, where you actually live. Now, what is the name of your house? Because in Samoa, each one has got a house with a name and nobody knows that name. So there is something very specific now of being Tongan. Where are you from? I'm Tongan. Where? Oh, I don’t know. Well, that's not good enough.

So there's some, even our names, some of us, if you name your children, uh, what's your last name Sala? A Samoan will go click, click, click, click, click. I know where you're from. So that is what we mean by cultural rights. And it's never assessed in school. Nobody knows because it's not important to a lot of New Zealand schools and a lot of our children, it's almost like they, you have to ask permission to be in some schools. And unless we call it to say, do your taualuga or your fa’ataupati, otherwise just shut up and get to the back, you know, that's a mindset of a lot of schools. And our children almost need to ask permission to be Samoans in a lot of Auckland schools, in a lot of Wellington schools, well, in a lot of Christchurch schools.

John McCaffery: I mean I strongly agree with Lesieli. It's an issue that Māori have faced. The problem is that the request to be Pacific in school is a decision of the majority group of the Palagi system of government and a policy. And my own view for what it's worth is that a number of Pacific schools will follow Māori out of the system into special character. Because only in a special character school does the community and the parents have the right to set and work on the curriculum and feel as though they own the school. Now, I think that would be a tragedy, but unless the system recognises what Dr. Lesieli has said, that these programs must be inspired by Tongan and Pacific values and owned by Pacific people, they'll continue to be owned by the policy makers and the politicians and the decision makers. And as in so many schools, you can only have what the principal will allow you to have and what the system will allow you to do. So the dreams and hopes are great, but I'd like to see them as Dr. Lesieli does, to go further, to return to Pacific communities that right, to set those agendas and to run and operate them as Māori have done.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Malo John. That's a great, great ending to our conversations and talanoa today. We've run out of time. But you know, we've talked about policy, we've talked about being able to enable, we've talked about essence, we've talked about normalizing, our identity and making it, a part of who we are today in a New Zealand context. So, Fakaaue lahi mahaki to everyone, all of our panellists here today. Thank you for your conversations and your perspectives and sharing your stories.  May God bless you and your family to be prosperous and thank you for coming and taking some time today. 

And so that ends our segment today on Pacific Languages. Fakaaue Lahi ke tau matakainaga oti. Oue Tulou. Kia Monuina. Thank you for joining us today at the table.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Today's topic is about the key opportunity as Pacific leaders to enhance the education of our families. So let's kick off with our first questions.

Luamanuvao, welcome to the show. So you've had an illustrious career of which many people, both older and younger, um, and especially Pacific women, see you as a trailblazer, an example of leadership with that experience in mind, the question that you've brought here to, um, at the table is, How can Pacific Island leaders support the aspirations of our children, parents, families, and communities across the education pipeline? What are these aspirations and how can leaders in community education, politics support these aspirations?

Luamanuvao Dame Winnie Laban: Thank you for the question and the title of the series is at the Table. So my mother always said that if you're not round the board table, you're on the menu, which means that we've got to grow leadership at all levels in society and decision making and that goes from all the institutions with education right across to civil society, non-government and even politics with parliament and private sector.

So the aspiration to grow leadership, and it's not about the me, it's about that leadership with that Samoan saying that goes o le ala o le pule, o le tautua, so that the road to leadership and authority is through service and it's about you taking the collective with you and through that support from the community and the collective you give back in relation to the roles that you have and take our values and, our cultures, but also our intelligence with us.

That brings huge value add to New Zealand. So we are very aspirational in the community and amongst our leaders that every child is given the best opportunity and family to realize their dreams so that they too can succeed, whether it be at university or to be the best scientist in New Zealand, or whether it be in trades or whether it be in business. So all those leadership qualities that we've been brought up as Samoan/New Zealand born Pacific, all contribute to that expectation that we are there to serve our community and realise the aspirations and dreams for all of our people and not about the individual.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Thank you for you for your comments and you know, thinking about, just reflecting on your journey as a young girl from Wainuiomata, did you have those aspirations in the very beginning as a, as a young child, or did, was it your lived experiences that have helped influence that passion for leadership?

Luamanuvao Dame Winnie Laban: Well, my parents came from Samoa in the 1950s So my brother Ken and I were born in Wellington. There was always an expectation that we would do well, and it was a heavy pressure at times, but there was also quite an emphasis on us being really good role models. And my parents, like many of that generation at that time, were hugely involved in the community because there wasn't a huge population of Pacific at that time, or Samoan. So, it was the church, you know, it was Pacifica, it was the community that they were involved with.

So, plus the house was always full of aiga that were on scholarships, studying at university and family coming over. So we were kind of brought up knowing that our parents were just not about us, but their lives were intertwined with the community, which actually taught us that it's just not about us children, it's us about being part of a wider community and family. That roots go back to Samoa and, uh, we've never ever forgotten that.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: That's awesome. And I love how you've started off today that, around that concept, Pacific concept that leadership is not a sole person, but it's actually about the wider village and its influence as well. If I could open up to the rest of the panel about their feelings on Dame Luamanuvao's question around that collective leadership. Filivaifale, did you wanna begin our conversations today?

Filivaifale Jason Swann: Sure. Thank you for that. I think the concept of the collective is really, really important, particularly in our Pacifica origins and our Pacifica circles. Mainly because when you've got the collective and you've got a lot of, I suppose, a lot of intelligence within that collective, a lot of, um, the ability to make things happen, to be solution focused, and, and when people are coming together as a collective, you, you're going to have a really good opportunity to make things go really, really well. I think also as part of the collective, you've got the opportunity as well to build up the leadership within the collective.  So as the younger generation comes through, I know from my own experience that our elders made sure that they put us into positions and opportunities that we could grow, and I think that's a really important part of the collective.

Rev. Nove Vailaau: Yeah, I think around the Pacific, the village concept is always the platform for building families and building people and building the shared economy of any village.  It's always the village that works together and people belong to a village, and it takes a village to build a child.

And I think it's that concept that many of our people from the Pacific, when they come to New Zealand, it seems to be a community building is always second to building a home. They have to be connected together and learning their language and assisting each other and having their family connections retained in foreign land seems to be a way for our people to survive away from home.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: That's quite a different spin, isn't it, from a Western perspective?

Rev. Nove Vailaau: It is perspective. I think the western way of life is you're an individual and it's always the immediate family that has to be taken care of for us, I think it's much bigger than that.

You take, take care of a village. Yeah, you marry the Samoan boy, you marry the village, you're not marrying a one person.

Tagaloatele Professor Peggy Fairbairn-Dunlop: I think much of it has been said, but our parents migrated with five children to New Zealand, and two of us, another two were born in New Zealand.

But to go back to the words, I think the way we were raised was to those to whom much is given, much is expected. So that was one layer that has come through here, but also the spirit of tautua of service to people, to the community, and tatou galulue fa’atasi that we all go together, which you have said too. And that's the bit which in our classrooms I think that in a competitive New Zealand or Palagi classroom, that's the bit that people cannot see so well that it's, we are not competing against each other. We would rather bring each other through as a group and that's the difference that you were, you've all been talking about as well to me.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: We began the session talking about how Pacific leaders can support the aspirations of our children, parents, families, and communities, in an education space as a wider village and that fits perfectly with our next question on how such a big influence the presence of the church and faith is for our Pacific communities. Our first question is how Pacific faith communities have played a significant role in the education and human development of our communities in New Zealand. Reverend Nove, Can you share with us a little bit more about that?

Rev. Nove Vailaau: I have been working in the church and serving our Samoan people for more than 30 years now. And serving not only in the international connections of the church to the World Church, but also in the region and now serving within the local community here in Porirua.

My observation in regards to the education of our people here in New Zealand, it seems like the platform and the environment of the church, which our people built within the last 50 years, is not fully utilised by the government to serve our people. It seems like the church has only been recognised in the area of spirituality, but not in the area of education, nor the social and economic development of our people. But mainline churches in New Zealand have already taken leadership in that field. The Catholic church, the Presbyterian church, the Young Lutheran church, the Methodist Church, they all do services for the community here in New Zealand but more for palagis. But Pacific churches now with different denominations that our Methodist Congregational and Assemblies of God and many other denominations of Pacific origin are not utilised. I think it's underutilised by the government for not working with churches that have been built for the last few years.

Now many of the denominations, the denomination that I do belong in, the Congregational Christian Church in Samoa has got 75 community churches around the country in the last 50 years. 75 communities. Wherever our people move around to find employment and as well as accommodation and where they live, they also build churches.  So, it seems like our people are comfortable in working around where they have a sense of belonging and sense of ownership.  And I think if we could use it well the church will offer a lot for the development and education of our people.

It has been used already with mainline churches. Catholic Church has got, I think, around more than a hundred schools around and other denominations mainline churches also do have their own services. Pacific churches are not utilised like that. And I think it's underused of resources that our people and our community have put a lot of effort in making sure that they are put in place. There’re three main important things that any Pacific people to come to New Zealand will be looking at.

One, to look for employment, two to look for shelter over their heads, and then three, to build a church to go to and sustain their spirituality and culture.  Those are the only three. If you can find any Pacific person, those three people, those three things will always come together as they journey around within this country.  I think we need to use the churches more rather than separating the church from the social economic development of our people in New Zealand.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Could you share with us a little bit more about how you've used the church as a type of agent to inspire and encourage education?

Rev. Nove Vailaau: Yeah. When I came to this community that I'm a Minister of, there was already a playgroup, with a resolution by the community that they would like to have a better qualified registered school.  So I'm not a teacher, but I'm forced by the community to lead their resolution and so that's what it turns out to be. And now we have 80% qualified teachers all trained with in New Zealand through Whitireia and the Wellington School of Education and we have more than 75 children in the place. And it's facilitated within the facilities of the church. So if you look at how the formula goes, the church use its properties to house the services.  So it's a kind of a tenancy rental agreement. So you build a cash flow so that it comes into the use of the properties of the church, at the same time you develop employment for people, educate people, but as well as you are serving a wider community.  Children who come to that school are not only children of the church, they are all from wider Porirua area and I think if churches who can offer these kind of services can also utilise the opportunity, then I think our children will be better educated from an early age.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: It's so great social enterprise model that your, you know?

Rev. Nove Vailaau: Well, it's a social entrepreneurship that or community entrepreneurship that needs to be developed.

Tagaloatele Professor Peggy Fairbairn-Dunlop: I would like to also add to what you are saying, because to my mind, the role of the church, as you have said in any area, gives our people a sense of security, identity, valuing, wellbeing, they can status because they and a place where they feel they belong, and your language courses that take place, all those sorts of things but to my mind, it's the whole thing of identity, security, of knowing who I am and what I am as a Tongan or a someone from Tuvalu or wherever that I have a standing place which is valued and which is shared and from that place of security, I think is a stepping stone into any school process outside of the church. And so I have always said that if Pacific peoples lose our faith and our belief in the church as our standing place, then we are almost lost as a people.  And so the role of the church, as you have said, is just so important. Thank you.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Luamanuvao and Filivaifale any thoughts?

Luamanuvao Dame Winnie Laban: Well, you know, I'd like to acknowledge that the church has a very central role to the wellbeing of Pacific people within New Zealand. In relation to education, I think the church could be a key partner, alongside, you know, schools and principals and teachers to support as early as possible the best outcomes for our children when they go to school. Cause I mean, there are times, and I'm at the university where students ask for extensions because they're, they're the choir leader or they're teaching the, the Sunday school and other activities. I think there's an issue around time management and how we can partner better, so the best wraparound our system can be put into place so that our children do grow up with those values, but still achieve in the mainstream.

Filivaifale Jason Swann: Yeah. Thank you. I agree with what's been said here as well. I, I think if I could add the church is a very central place for us as Pacific people. And it's a chance for us to be a community amongst a community.  The other thing too is that with churches, they're not only nourishing our head, but also our heart and so with the inspiration of head and heart together, you know, you can move forward and create some wonderful things. One of the things I think that probably could be expanded on is the ability for the, all the expertise and all the cultural, the identity culture and ability and capacity within church communities to be able to work with schools and in education, to be able to utilise everything that, you know, all the good things that are in amongst those communities.And to be able to have children, young people, even through into tertiary, to be able to have that pathway of learning, but learning about themselves, their cultures and who they are and how they are, and how they come to be, particularly in a spiritual sense can only make for really good positive outcomes.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Because I go back to what Reverend Nove said, you know, a church is a place for spirituality as well as culture. And I think we always talk about, we were talking about education here at the table, but really the church is also another place of learning where we can kind of grab onto those skills and continue to develop our younger generation. So your question at the table is, how do we ensure the equity of access to that enables our Pasifika and Māori people the ability to be successful without having to navigate a number of potential barriers that many others in society never have to deal with? Can you share us a little bit more about that?

Filivaifale Jason Swann: Thank you for that. I think education is a complex situation. And as we know, equity isn't prevalent right through the whole of the education system. So some people in the education system have to navigate different things as opposed to others.  For an example, wifi access, you know, internet access, connectivity, the ability to have their own, child or a young person's own device as an example, a lot of people would take that for granted and they wouldn't see that as anything different, whereas a lot of families do not have that opportunity.

And so I think there's an opportunity not only for education institutions such as schools and universities, but also the government and probably the council to be able to step up and find a solution that is quite easily got to, but probably financial. And so the ability for us to be able to have one-to-one devices for students is really a numbers game, and we should be able to do that. The other ability to connect households to the internet is something that should be just as of right. So for instance, if you move into a house, you should expect it to be warm, you should expect it to have an oven to be able to cook on, well, why not expect connectivity? Why not expect that we have wifi in a house? As of right.

The other thing I suppose, too, is that when you have that connectivity, you need to make sure that there is devices available for young people.  And we have to invest in our young people because if we, it is cheaper for our nation to invest now in our young people because we are preparing them for tomorrow and for employment and jobs and occupations that haven't even been invented yet. So we're actually navigating the unknown, which our people are very, very good at. And so if we are going to prepare them for tomorrow for unemployment that we actually don't know what it could be, we have to be able to do that fully informed.

And so if our young people have access to the internet to connectivity without the barriers of the financial, you know, financial possibilities that can hold them back, then we are gonna be able to promote and produce well-informed intelligent young people. And these young people are going to make decisions for you and I as we get older. So I would want them well informed.  I would want them confident and competent in their decision making, and so we shouldn't be putting barriers in the way we should be opening all of those up. And it is very, very simple. You know, that one example of connectivity and ability to have devices, digital devices in homes that's easily solvable. We just have to want to be able to do it.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Malo Filivaifale. You know, you’re the principal of Otahuhu School in South Auckland and I guess you're talking from, I hear one of the great things that you do is you talk about a community hub and what that means, and a lot of what you're talking about in terms of access Yes. about removing barriers has been around the wider family even before we talk about education and learning, can you share us a little bit about, why you feel the way you feel because of what you've experienced in your community?

Filivaifale Jason Swann: Yes. Thank you for that. I think schools are community. They have a real community focus and they're community organizations and they're trusted organisations. And you'll have a lot of community, parents, families coming into schools and feeling comfortable, hopefully in schools.  So why not use that place in the community to have other organisations come in and work for our community? So I'm talking about housing, I'm talking about budgeting, I'm talking about the ability to access information. Why not let those organisations come to our schools and work from our schools? Because we already have the relationships with our community and so why not come to our people not having our people go all over different communities and, and across the nation trying to find answers. Why not bring the answers and the ability that people can provide to the school and work within the school, have that holistic wraparound service.  We've talked about service here quite often, and it is a really fundamental part of us as Pacific people so why not continue to serve the community within a school?

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Awesome. I value that feedback. Luamanuvao, did you want to add to that?

Luamanuvao Dame Winnie Laban: Well, you know, I wanted to applaud Jason for his leadership at Otahuhu and the whole concept of a community fale or hub goes back to the village, goes back to the local community being engaged and it's lovely to have a one-stop shop. It's very difficult for people to navigate the system for support because they're too busy trying to work and raise their families.  I think Covid actually brought out the digital divide as to who has the devices and who hasn't, and I think it's an area that we need to address quite seriously in a coordinated way, including with the government agencies to fund it.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: I totally agree with you on that. Tagaloatele?

Tagaloatele Professor Peggy Fairbairn-Dunlop: I think the digital divide has been very well covered.

If we talk about access and equity, is it okay if I turn the conversation back? I really think we need teachers who understand other ways of knowing other than palagi ways who understand other pupils, but at least respect them and honour them, and are inclusive of our knowledge within the ordinary day by day teaching systems. And I think when I was a lecturer at Wellington Teachers College in the 1970s, we started that sort of curriculum next to the Māori faculty of Polynesian studies. What does it mean? What does it mean in the classroom in terms of language, nuances of meaning?

You know, we've got teachers up there teaching away. How do we know if our students understand them? Are they explaining things in a way which is, which may, which is meaningful to Pacific students? Or thinking around a curriculum so that they can support all students in their class learn whether they be Pacific, whether they be from any country in the world, or lower socioeconomic groups and higher ones. So, I think our teachers’ colleges, to back up what you're saying, really have to go back to getting teachers to understand their own values and beliefs so that they can understand all of the pupils in front of them, getting to know them so that they can teach to those ones. Thank you.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Malo. Rev?

Rev. Nove Vailaau: Yeah, I think we are in the age of technology where accessibility is much more, I think of this time and age and if accessibility is made possible by technology, why not everything else?  We are heading towards making things much simpler, much easier than what it was before.

And yet if we make people’s right to anything for their wellbeing is becoming a barrier for them for development, then I think we are, we are not utilising the thinking of the time and the thinking of the space. We are, we are dragging the movement forward.  And I think Jason has got a very, very strong point and connecting to the concept of village that we started off with, I think, you know, it makes it much more specific related to have access to things while you are in the same, same environment.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Malo. Great discussions around equity and access and divides. If I could go back, Jason, to understanding the work that you do in Otahuhu, how important is the leadership of parent, the parent voice in, in helping formulate that plan and strategy?

Filivaifale Jason Swann: It's hugely important not only parent voice, but also student voice, because we can't assume that we actually know what are the immediate needs or even the possibility of what the future needs may be. So you need to communicate, you need to be a really good listener. You need to be able to find out what is happening and also being able to ask the right questions. But first of all, you need to have a wonderful connection with your community so that they feel that they come, they can come talk with you, talanoa with you, and be able to share that information.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: We've talked about leadership; we've talked about equity and access and about removing barriers. And then the question that you've talked about is that there is no one solution, but a set of what should and can be done to ensure equity and access to education for Pacific learners, teachers and policy makers and parents, our part and Pacific sitting at education decision making tables backed by sound research. So how could we co-create these solutions alongside our Pacific communities, is your question that you presented to us today?

Tagaloatele Professor Peggy Fairbairn-Dunlop: Well, I think we're going back to the first bit about sitting at the decision-making tables, but we're also looking at auala or pathways to there, and one thing which has been briefly touched on is we actually need role models of Pacific success or achievement in a palagi world, as well as in our sports, in our music, and in the educational field. That's what we need. We need role models, and we also need, I think you used the word navigators, we need navigators who sort of, or pioneers who go ahead and try and set the processes by which people can see there is a auala, there is a pathway that I as a Pacific Islander can go, and for example, Dame Luamanuvao has done that in politics and you've done that through the church of that model, and you are doing it in schools.  

And so, um, coming back to New Zealand after, uh, 25 years out in the Pacific and Samoa, I came to Victoria and it looked as if Pacific at Victoria was just, was the right time and place to get Pacific knowledge and values and beliefs into a university curriculum because there the really that's where it sort of begins because we all know that you've got to get a degree or a bit of paper to get anywhere in New Zealand society today. And so that's what most of our universities in New Zealand have been trying to do, is to make a place for Pacific knowledge, values and beliefs within the national curriculums. Very hard to change the operating procedures and the rules and the regulations of universities and what they say is knowledge and what is not knowledge and to have Pacific knowledge and ways of doing things valued.

But we’re sort of breaking through that just a little bit, I think. And so when I came back to New Zealand and went to Victoria and then to AUT, I came back from the Pacific with this very naïve but wonderful vision of changing the systems until I hit the real systems that have been there for what, 300 - 400 years and it was really, really hard. And it was hard because if you go into universities and teachers’ colleges, there are not that many Pacific teachers, who can carry that banner, if you like, for Pacific knowledge and values and beliefs. And so tried hard for a while and then in the end I really came back to what you have said, Jason, before that really, I'm not going to change the systems, but my students will.

And so that's why probably I just sort of changed my direction and I said, okay, I've got to get through. I've got to make a pathway for Masters and Doctorates who can sit at decision making tables all through New Zealand, not just in universities, but now from our graduates and our Pacific graduates from New Zealand, they are sitting at educational decision-making tables and impacting the Ministry of Social Development. One of our PhDs is a civil engineer. He's sitting at those tables right through that, that's what we have to do. And so that's drawing on our resources, supporting our resources, and then giving them that bit of paper so that they can sit at a decision-making table and have it the front of their name doctor, and then you will get listened to.  And isn't that an awful thing to say that you, your knowledge only belongs when you've got that bit of paper, so you can cut all that out. 

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: I think taking from your statement, there is, you know, there is, you know, there is in, in leadership, there is that, trailblazers and I think when I introduced you Luamanuvao I said you were known as a trailblazer and you are all trailblazers or trendsetters, if I was to generalise the name and the youth today, um, of your spaces and the different practices, um, that, that you accomplish in the community.  If I was to take from the spirit of Tagaloatele’s question around a solution that you feel that you've co-designed with your own community, would you be able to share that with us today?  A solution that you've, that you've come up with co-designed or co-created with your community, whether that be a church, school or a tertiary institution.  What could that be and what could that look like?

Filivaifale Jason Swann: I think if I'm an offer something that we've been working on at the moment, um, I'm, I'm part of, as was said earlier, New Zealand Pacifica Principles Association, and we realize that we actually have to get Pacifica voice out there, out into society, out into Aotearoa New Zealand. And so one of the things that we have done is that we've formed a, a bespoke program for school principals called Tautai o le Moana, which is navigating the ocean or way finding through the ocean.

And for us it's about actually helping, uh, New Zealand school principals understand Pacifica worldview and the nuances within the Pacifica culture and a range of cultures, because remember the word Pacifica reflects a number of different Pacific nations, and so and be able to make New Zealand principals confident and competent in those spaces.  And so we've been working on that for probably two years at the moment. And we are building and building and it’s a real need at the moment. I think one of the things too that we need to be aware of is that our Pacifica people are growing. So you have multi pacific, multi-ethnic Pacific people.

So you have Samoan Tongan people, you have Samoan Tokelauan people, you have Fijian Taiwanese people. And so there's quite a mix. And I think one of the beauties of Pacific people is that everyone wants to marry us. And so in saying that, we continue just to spread our good news and that's what's going to happen right through Aotearoa New Zealand. And I come back to an earlier comment also, the fact that if you're not at the table, you may be on the menu. And so for us, as, as you said, possible trailblazers or trendsetters, we have a responsibility to create opportunities for people around us and to bring the future through into positions where they're going to be able to influence for good.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Malo. Luamanuvao? 

Luamanuvao Dame Winnie Laban: Yeah. Well, 34% of the Pacific population our age between nought and fourteen. I know with the NCEA results that we've only gone up 1% with UE. And I think that yes, you know, we, we can celebrate our successes, but there are a whole lot of children and their parents who are yet to be around the table.  And that's what my passion and all of us are about, is to support every child to have the best opportunity with education.  I think it also goes back to what Peggy said about the quality of the principals and the teachers in schools.  We all know the teacher who turned the light bulb on and us that fed our bliss to believe that education is something we can fall in love with and work hard on to achieve. So we've still got a lot of work to do, and we are competitive. We are not romantic, we are loving, we are family, but you know, those rugby players and netball players taught us that we also want to be up with the palagis and Asians, where they're the scientists and the architects and across the board.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: So, you'll see that with the Hurricane spirit there.

Luamanuvao Dame Winnie Laban: Absolutely. Hope for the hurricanes yet.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Awesome. Tagaloatele?

Tagaloatele Professor Peggy Fairbairn-Dunlop: I’ll let you go first.

Rev. Nove Vailaau: Yeah. I would like to say that I think the migration vision of milk and honey is not something that you just come and grab it. It has to be a journey. And who thought that in the last 20 years there was no Pacific politician, but now we have about what, six, seven or it's a lot of now, yeah, so we are still on a journey and we're still an infant community within the population of New Zealand.  But if we compare successes, I think we have done very, very well, maybe not everybody, but I think with status of where we're going, probably level two, level one leadership is there.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling – I say not covid level one, level two..

Rev. Nove Vailaau: No, no, no, no.  But I think we are, we are heading somewhere. We are making contributions into the welfare of this country, not only in the education, but to social and economic development. There's a lot of push for business. So there's a lot of people. So I think Tagaloa is right. If you can't change the system, change the minds of those who will change the system going forward.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Awesome. Do you have one line Tagaloatele to end your question?

Tagaloatele Professor Peggy Fairbairn-Dunlop: No, not really. I think for pupils in schools today and for parents as well, this has already been said, it's always been that we need teachers who believe that our students will succeed so that our students get that message, yes, we can succeed, but we also have to, I think back to your initial question, the sorts of, and Jason has answered, we are building up a basket of knowledge if you like, which can support teachers. I'm thinking of Talanoa Ako, which is parents and children learning together.

And so you are maintaining the va of knowledge building between the parents and the children, but the parents are also learning the new knowledge that their children are getting and starting to understand it, but also the children are learning about their parents' journeys and what their parents did too. And as far as I can see that Talanoa Ako and the way that in the Covid period, I remember when Covid was on, then they started delivering it in about six Pacific languages by radio, just to make sure to maintain the, the messages going through because you really cannot separate too much the children from the parents, can you? E galulue fa’atasi, we all go together. So that, that is my final word and we'll build up the resources and go together again.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Fakaaue lahi. we've reached the end of our time together here at the panel, but thank you once again panel for being a part of today's at the table. Thank you for your personal experiences, your stories, they have deeply enriched our talanoa. Oua e lau kafo kae lau e lava. Malo aupito. Tu’a ofa atu. We look forward to seeing you next time at the table.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Today we'll be having a talanoa, on the key opportunities for our Pacific learners, how they're doing today, and what does the future hold for them and are our Pacific learners equipped for the careers of the future. And when we say Pacific Learner, we aren't just saying our young ones because we also include those studying at tertiary level, which includes our older generators.

So, let's start off with our first question, and may I say it feels like a very youthful panel today. So I've been throwing out a lot of 20 year plus, but no very youthful panel we have today.  So let's start with our first question, Ali.

Even though, Ali, you look like you've just come at a primary school, but as a former student champion, you ask, why aren't we creating an environment to realise the potential of our Pacific student voice as legitimate partners to help overcome the challenges Pacific communities face in higher education? Can you share with us here at the table how we can create this environment and what are the challenges that our students and their communities face?

Ali Leota: Education providers don't exist without our students and students are, you know, fundamental to education itself. And with that, I think ways we can create better environments is just our education providers being accountable to, to themselves, but also doing what they're saying that they're going to do. And our prime example is that, is that a lot of our institutions value the concept or value of akoranga, which loosely translates to learn or to teach. And unfortunately, that hasn't really, you know, been the bread and butter of what they're supposed to be doing.

And I see students as the group that's going to fill the void and fill that gap. And cause students, we don't just go into education to learn, we also teach our educators and also our peers. And I think that needs to be top of mind for our education providers cause you know, when I walk into a classroom, it's not the teacher's classroom, it's our classroom. And some of the issues that our communities talk about is that they want to see our own people in the driver's seat and what has been, I guess, overlooked is the role student voice facilitates at universities and Polytechs, they have student associations and clubs that practice governance, but we don't really see ourselves in the seats where that call the shots for our providers and so forth. So, it's really trying to make that connection and see where our students can, you know, jump on that spot and, and really drive the way forward and for me, I think it's all about the value of akoranga to learn and to teach and our institutions have a lot to learn from our students, but also our students have a lot to teach to our education providers.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Malo Ali. And look in your intro, you said that you've been a student at various tertiary institutions. And I'm not saying that that took you a long period of your life so far to in your study, but can you share with us about how your experiences at those different institutions and whether you've seen a shift in Pacific students being more excited about being at a governance level?

Ali Leota: Yeah, sure. Like, uh, 'cause obviously I first started at Whitireia and I was there doing trade course and student voice wasn't quite prominent there. But then as I progressed, went to Manakau Institute Technology, there was bits and bobs about it, but then went into Te Herenga Waka, Victoria University of Wellington, student voice was quite prominent. And you can see there's a bit of disconnect between across the tertiary sector, what student voice looks like. But it definitely has made progress. And I know last year in Auckland all five major tertiary providers had a Pacific student as their president for their mainstream student association. So we had Massey Albany, AUT University, University of Auckland, MIT, and Unitech all had someone of Pacific descent leading the voice of students. So, and that's big progress, but we still got a long way to go.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: But it's really exciting to see that there has been that shift. Melissa, you yourself, a current student doing your MBA at University of Otago, can you share some perspectives on that as well?

Melissa Lama: Yeah, look I will always be a for student voice and I think, you know, need to be honest for the older, older generation….

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: You're not talking about our other panellists here are you?

Melissa Lama: No, I’m not looking at anyone in particular guys. I’m not looking at anybody. Yeah, I tend to get a bit like cautious around student voice, and I think sometimes cause they can't control that narrative. But the reality is if you can hold space for student voice, I mean, what a great way to reflect whether your institution or, you know, the way that you're functioning your programs is actually working for students. And I always encourage, like my exec or my associations to really partake in, in citizenship. So like study, but also look at the avenues in which you can lobby because, you know, if you can do it with us and with your own group, then the likelihood of you being able to do it when you step into the journey of your career will come natural in some way. Yeah.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: That's awesome. Okay, Dr Cherie, I mean, you've been in tertiary for quite a while. What are your perspectives on the power of student voice?

Dr Cherie Chu-Fuluifaga: Well, I mean, okay, I have been in education a long time and  I think when I think about how Ali and Melissa are speaking to the narrative of the student voice, it's come a long way in many regards because in the past, we haven't had that high level of student advocacy and, and voice and, and specifically through actual powerful channels. So like the associations of powerful channels, across the country there’s obviously movements and conference and symposium for example, that allow that to come through. And, and it is a way of challenging systems as well. It is a challenge. It's challenging the older narrative in some regards because a lot of our cultures are built on the,you know, the status, the hierarchy, which we acknowledge, but also the fact that to come to the table, we need the younger people. And their voice is valid, it's relevant and especially in these types of, times of COVID-19 and technological moves and so forth, it's, it's more relevant than ever. Yeah.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Karl, as a student?

Karl Vasau: I think we saw during the lockdown the importance of having children in our communities that could connect. So we saw lots of our Pacific children becoming self-directed learners that were choosing where they wanted to go and trying to connect, with their teachers. And it's important there that you have that ability to create children in your school or in your community where they think that way. And like Dr. Cherie was saying, you know, there's sometimes there's structures in our communities that kind of put restrictions on how far our children will take risks. It's important too that tertiary providers are preparing if we want children like this, tertiary providers need to prepare educators that are top quality, that have got all the skills they need so that they can take this voice. It's not children speaking out, it's not children going against the structures, but children that can dream and they can, they can choose their direction in life. They can choose what they want to learn what they want to do. But yeah, voice is important that co-construction, that you know, power sharing situation and it's valuable education, valuable learning will come from that.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Our next question goes to Melissa, As-salamu alaikum Melissa.

Melissa Lama: Wa alaikum salam, thank you.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: So the question that you brought to the table was about focusing on the need for Pacific staff at Tertiary institutions, how important it's for us to attract and look after our Pacific academics. And I'm sure Dr. Cheri would love to answer this, but first we'll hear, uh, what your answer is.

Melissa Lama: You know, as a learner, as a student, studying undergrad in the politics, it was interesting learning Pacific foreign policy in New Zealand foreign policy with the Pacific from a white man from Europe, you know, who didn't quite have an understanding around the region and some of the theories behind the cultural practices and I guess the governance of matai next to the, you know the British way of governance. And so it's important for us to be able to see, obviously the lecturers reflecting who we are. And for me, I always like to have a look at the HR recruitment and if they're actively seeking Pacific staff.

And so when I knew I had this question, I actually went to our HR team and I asked, and they thought that was weird. And they said, oh, obviously if  the CV’s attractive, we'll take them, you know? And I said, but you actively looking for Pacific academic stuff. And then I asked for subjects that aren't necessarily big with Pacific representation, like gender studies and, and some of those papers. And they, and I said, oh, so do you hire them for those ones? You know, just making them uncomfortable 'cause I love to do that. And they said, no, just like everyone else, we just vet them, you know, and then they said, oh, what's, why are you asking?

And I said, you know, for Pacific, there's already unconscious bias that we are all aware of.

So for me, it's knowing if, if you are actively seeking it, shows me that you're trying to uncover you know, go above that unconscious bias. So I don't think I'll be welcomed back in there ever again. But that's all good. And I think one other thing, just to chuck in there is ensuring that we have like equitable payment, uh, systems that recognise Pacific competencies. You know, as Pacific, we have to carry, you know, community advocacy, sit on all these, cultural advisory groups. And I don't feel like the institutions value that enough, and we need to see that, you know,  translated in, in the way they pay our staff.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: You’re the president of the Pacific Island students association at University of Otago.

Melissa Lama: Yeah.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: And I think it must be quite, you know, one of those things that you're seeing, you wanna see people who look like you and talk like you and have the similar experiences to you.

Melissa Lama: Yeah. And you know, you hear those sort of comments from other students as well, and you know, that they're always asking, I just had class and my lecture is asking me to affirm what he's saying, you know, because he's not Pacific or he hasn't lived what he's explaining. And so stuff like that, having to be put in those positions, you shouldn't really have to face that.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: And I love what you said about trying to acknowledge and value those unspoken things that we often people in the western world don't often value, which is the things that engagement and other things like that.

Oh, really great start. Ali, did you wanna share on that?

Ali Leota: Yeah, definitely. Pacific staff is yeah, allows students to feel comfortable, but also be able to see themselves at the educational provider, wherever that be. And, but it's also an invitation for collective action towards structural change. And I know that, you know, we should all recognise all those specific educators that are currently serving our people. And, you know, they're, they've, , I can't imagine what they went through. It would've been a lot tougher than what it was when I had to go through education. And I, you know, I would love to be a student at your primary school and have a Pacific principal that that's awesome. And I mean, we obviously, we still a long way to go, but there's so much opportunity, but also potential to value and appreciate the role Pacific people bring to education in form of staff, but also students.

So, yeah. And I think when we're talking about staff academics, I know the biggest barrier that many Pacific students face was that progression from undergraduate to postgraduate studies. When you get to postgraduate studies, you don't get any real support financially. You have to borrow money to live. And that's a big barrier in itself, and that's why many of our Pacific students choose to work rather than to continue to struggle financially for another couple years. And I think if we were to, you know, change that and say, bring things back like a postgraduate student allowance, maybe we'll see more of our own Pacific people progressing forward to be academics and just continue to work towards structural change for our Pacific people.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: I can hear that student voice coming out there from you dropping some of those things there. Awesome. And I love what I loved what you said, talking about that not only is it about, you know, the tertiary space in terms of seeing brown leaders, academics, teachers, principals, but it's also across the education pipeline as well. Karl and Dr. Cheri, did you just wanna share about how important it is to have, for Pacific learners to see brown academics and leaders in the education?

Karl Vasau: The best teacher for Pacific children is the best teacher, but if that teacher happened to have a specific flavour in who they were and where they came from and the histories they brought, it just strengthens the connection. So, you know, I'm pleased when you see policies from this government where they're putting money into increasing the capacity of Pacific or the workforce in the Pacific area in education, more teachers, more Pacific teachers in schools, more Pacific leadership, we've seen different kind of strategies and programs that build the capacity of Pacific leaders. Once upon a time, 14 years ago when I got my first principal's job, you know, we were rare. It was really hard to see a Pacific person. Now we're at every table, every table possible, and the ones that we are invited to, it's important for our children to see that we are normal and that we are part of that. When Pacific children see someone of colour or culture similar to them and they think it's strange, then we need to change that mind, that mindset and try and make it a little bit normal to see someone like Dr. Cherie or myself sitting in our chairs that we do sit in.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Dr. Cherie?

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: And I think, just to build on everybody's talanoa here, it's what we're talking essentially about in education across the sectors is visibility and high visibility rather than invisibility, because a lot of our work is invisible, but in fact, we are one of the most prominent groups that is growing in terms of population in this country, whether it's our children or it's our students and tertiary organisations. And so we need to be always at the table, but also essentially, made to be encouraged in our positions to increase leadership, to increase governance, and management positions. Because we are still sitting back a little bit in our institutions and schools and communities. And so we need to also be flourishing in these communities and acknowledging that we have these strengths and talents and skills within our own community so that we are not just on the sideline. You know, and I'm really committed to that.

Karl Vasau: And just, and can I just add, adding our value to it. So I just completed my Masters and the whole thing around my Masters was concepts that, that pertain to Pasifika and my identity. Once upon a time, knowledge was a certain type of look. Now I can happily and comfortably talk about talanoa and talk about servant leadership and the ways in which I was brought up and what I, how I saw my grandparents being. And it's important that if you, if you can flourish in an environment that values our knowledge and our, and our context, and actually you can get something really big out of it, then that needs to be promoted and enforced.

Melissa Lama: Sorry, I'll just jump in. But I think one thing institutions do really well is, you know, we advocate for voice at the table, and then they have this tendency to push us into one area. And it's like, you're only a champion or you're only specialised in Pacific areas. I think it's about time that they move away from just having Associate Dean Pacific, you know, actually make our Professor a Dean of Humanities, you know, a Dean of Commerce, you know. And that's, so sometimes I'm really mindful of, you know, some of my things that I say when I advocate, because I don't want them to think that we're any specialised here. Actually, what we do is, is good all round, so don't get it twisted. Like we are happy to cover to your space.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Because I was gonna say is that you don't wanna be the voice of all Pacific just because you are Pacific if you're really trying to push in that space If you, Melissa, 'cause this is your question, did you have any solutions around what that might look like in terms of helping build that representation?

Melissa Lama: I think the pathways, as I understand it in academia to be professor is quite strenuous like for, and you know, going from lecture to senior lecture and then associate professor and cause I do would love say I'm a fan because I would love to lecture one day. So, and looking at it and seeing how much people, like how much work you have to do, supervision now is all that stuff.

It's pretty intense. And again, when you are, the skills you have in the institution is the same skills you use to help your community. So it's like actually realise that we do the same thing here also in these spaces. And then how, how do we get them to finally value that impact? And it's really hard to get them to measure, measure anything that's around social cohesion or social, you know, the social growth of our communities. And I feel like academia need to be mindful of that. Not just grades, but also what they come with and the experiences. So that's my solution, a bit radical, but…

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: No, I don’t think it's radical at all.

Melissa Lama: There's, there's enough space there to give it consideration. It's just, it's like they know what to do, but are you brave enough to do it? You know? So yeah.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Do you, what would be then, if you had a bottom-line challenge to those listening out there who come from those type of institution from any educational institution, what would that challenge be?

Melissa Lama: The challenge would be to like I said before, like, be brave. I mean, some of you know about the marron society that we're going through, policy that we're going through at Otago. They know what to do to protect that policy, but whether they're brave enough to do it is, is the question. So I'm always like, defend the policy, pay all those lawsuits if you have to. You can afford it. You know, things like that. So I'm just like, take the step and protect us.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Our next question is with Dr. Cherie, malo. So Dr. Cheri, the question you're brought here is around flourishing communities for Pacific learners in the New Zealand education system that can be created with a deeper appreciation and exploration of their cultural capital. First of all, what is cultural capital and how do we create that type of environment?

Dr Cherie Chu-Fuluifaga: Oh, upon reflection, gosh, that's a really big question. And I think the, even just the notion of what cultural capital is, it's who we are as Pasifika peoples. It's our identities, it's our languages, it's our, our families, it's our, our diaspora, it's our migration, it's our histories and so it's everything that we bring.

And often when I'm speaking to my students at school, at university, I, I talk about cultural capital and there are a lot of us as Pasifika youth as children have had to leave our cultures at the door.

It's our backpacks of culture that we've left at the door, and then we enter the new doors of the school or the tertiary organisation, and we have to learn this new culture. And so essentially, it's probably a kind of a mask in terms of my question is that we actually have to acknowledge discrimination, we have to acknowledge racism, institutional racism, societal racism, and to really to push those edges out because we've had so much underachievement in this, this country.

It's just not on, you know, Ali's been in my class, for a while when he was doing his undergrad. And I used to deliver the same lecture. The same lecture was at least 20 years long about underachievement the Tale of Underachievement. And it wasn't about the learner. It was about the structures. It was about our methods of teaching, of engagement in communities of the policies that Melissa's talking about. And of course, we still have a long way to go, but it's more urgent. It's so urgent. We can't live our lives in, in these clouds of racism. You know, even if it is in our schools and education systems.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: And the, you know, the newly released Action Plan for Pacific Education talks a little bit about one of the systems shifts around racism and discrimination and the community from the system. What do you think are some solutions of how we would approach that? And I know that's a big question, saying, hey, wait, give us the answer to your question about how do we solve racism? But you know, it is very obvious and very many spaces and we, we still hear people talking, kids learners talking about their experiences being a negative one.

Dr Cherie Chu-Fuluifaga: I think some of our solutions or our possibilities are about autonomy. So giving power and autonomy in terms of our communities and our peoples and our policy and our bureaucrats and our school leaders and our tertiary leaders who are Pasifika, giving them trust and autonomy to make decisions for our people based on our value system, rather than a palagi system or western system that hasn't worked. We know that. We see that in research in the statistics, you know, it's like, you know, you turn up to a meeting, they go, oh, what's, what's the solution?

And it's like, well, the solution is that we take our own power and we make the decisions because if we stuff it up, we haven't stuffed it up as bad as the system has stuffed it up for the last 50 years right? And yeah. So we have to push, we have to challenge and we have to be meaningful about it. And we have to have people that support that in our partnership. Because, for example, a lot of people will say to me, well, we know, won't you, don't you need resources? Well, we have no resources, right? We don't have money, but we are, our resources are our people will always be our people.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: That's powerful that people are our resources and in some of our other panel discussions that we've had, they've talked about this village collective leadership, servant leadership that Karl had mentioned, as the power and the value of us being Pacific and doing it in our own way. Karl, did you wanna touch on that?

Karl Vasau: Yeah. And to add to that, you know, at the moment we're seeing an initiative where we are relooking at how, what, how teaching New Zealand history and in our schools and in our education facilities is important. Pacific people in communities have contributed towards the history of this country for many, many years. My grandfather left Samoa in the 30s, came here, went to World War II, fought as a proud Samoan in New Zealander in those wars. He's contributed to some really rich history that you can input into the learning of the children that power. We've been powerful for such a long time, but we just didn't see it that way. We didn't, we don't see that kind of, of knowledge or experience as being something really important.

The contribution we make constantly to, to, to what New Zealand is, should not be undervalued, but should be put forward is, hey, we're making real big contributions and that kind of look way of looking at teaching histories from a, from a narrow perspective, but from a huge one. So our kids can connect and learn better and find that that road or that path where they aren't necessarily just the tail of achievement any longer.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: And, you know, from that, I get knowledge is power and it's about socializing that knowledge, so that it becomes normal.

Karl Vasau: And whose knowledge and what knowledge and just not, not being, not being afraid, be brave and just take those risks and step up and just, and share that, hey, my story's valuable. It's as valuable as everybody else’s.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: To our students or former students or current students. What are your perspectives on that cultural capital and as a learner, what it means to you.

Ali Leota: I’ll go first. Yeah, so it's all, for me, it's all about reframing the narrative of Pacific in education. And we already know what research says. We don't need to know about it cause we're trying to progress and think positively and appreciate what we bring to the table. And with that, you know, when I look at tertiary education, primary school, secondary school, and for student voice particularly in higher education, that's not as valued as it should be. But we should be learning more from our primary secondary schools’ cause and I've flick through news and hear that there's a Pacific Head student, whether that be in Porirua, South Auckland, Hawkes Bay, Christchurch. Yeah. I just smile and just really, you know, kind of punch the air, you know, we’ve cracked it and that we're progressing forward.

But then I feel sorry for a lot of those Head Pacific students, when they enter tertiary education, cause sometimes they get lost and that, they're forced to leave their identity at the door and there isn't much of an environment opportunity for them to thrive like they would have experienced at high school or primary school. And I think tertiary education has a lot to learn from our young ones. Cause the only time they're valued is when they're welcomed and when they graduate. And in between these tertiary providers need to up their game and really appreciate our Pacific culture, values and language.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: I love that, you know, what you've said about appreciating and not just being tokenistic around that. Cause it sounds like that in a Pacific, uh, in a primary secondary school, it's, it's quite real. But when you get to tertiary kind of go what you were going back to Dr. Cherie, you leave it at the door and you come into a Western space that doesn't appreciate or value what it is.

Ali Leota: Yeah. And I'm quite envious of the young ones at primary and secondary school at the moment. cause they're really celebrating Samoan culture for me, Samoan culture and all the Pacific cultures. And I'm just gutted that I didn't get the opportunity and I'm so happy to see that it's been celebrated and again appreciated.

Melissa Lama: Yeah. I think, just going back to what you said about giving us autonomy around power and decision making, I think one thing that we often have to do as students is go the hard way to get our voice across in terms of wat we expect from education. And it's like, again, had you included us in the formation of this, you know, this paper or this decision that you've made, that impacts us. We wouldn't have to lobby so hard submit, like do submissions, gather petitions, you know, and it's like, why are you making us work like this where you could have sat down like this? You know?

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: It must take a look a lot of energy to be able to always advocate on behalf of Pacific.

Melissa Lama: It does. And it's tiring. And I think it's also interesting to look at it from this perspective. When Pakeha lobby and speak out, they're seen as forthcoming, thought provoking. You know, you're thinking outside the square, but when Pasifika students or Pasifika people speak out. It's, you know, you're a troublemaker. You're going against the grain, you're being radical, you know. And so it's even worse when it's our own people who are saying it to us and so I often do when it's our own people but in the, I find in a Western space I'm very loud and, but when I'm back with our own, it's very hard to bring that energy. I don’t know about you guys, but yeah.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Any other thoughts?

Karl Vasau: You see that too at meetings you attend or you know, the culture and the way in which you, you'll go into a situation you think, okay, no one's used to me here. I better just relax for a little while and then pounce, you know, and then they say, oh, that's what this fellow is all about. But it's the passion we have. It's how we've been bottled up for so long and to keep all our ideas. I just love the fact that now when, you know, education review office comes into my school and they say, oh, so what are you doing about Pasifika education? And I just go, it's me. Well, what else? How can I show you what else I'm being a Pacific? And for them it's changing their mindsets too about oh yeah, you, you do have some skill. Yeah. I definitely do.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: And I think, you know, that going from that conversation, we were going back to the system cause we're talking about the experiences of a learner, but the system is the one that conditions that kind of culture. Did you wanna share a little bit more about what do you think could be ways to move forward in that space?

Dr Cherie Chu-Fuluifaga: I think, I think it's about monopolizing as Pasifika value systems as peoples, as communities as really pushing the boundary again and making sure that our theories, our knowledge, our methods are prominent. And that, you know, knowledge creation by our own people is not new. And so we have to make sure that it is speaking loudly through peoples, through resources, through policies, through research, through the students and through the young people and through especially our schools as well. Because that's where it's going to start and it's not going to finish.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Our conversations today have been around student leaders, and we are now brought to our last question with Karl. Welcome, Karl. The question you have brought is how do schools, centres, institutions build knowledge and understanding of things Pacific for their staff leadership and governance? Why is it an important and what does this look, feel, and sound like?

Karl Vasau: It starts with real, in-depth, in your own context and looking at your strategic documents, at your visions, at your purposes, and seeing where Pacific fits for every school that I talk to and I provide some support in relation to how they can better engage Pasifika? I ask them, what is your definition of Pasifika, what do you believe it means here in this context? How do your students and your children walk around the school? How do they see themselves here? Do they feel, do they feel brave?

Is the voice coming through that you're hearing saying that, that is the case? When we talk about engaging, one of the most important stakeholders in any school, in, in, in any, you know, institution is that voice from parents or those people that are key to supporting our students succeed wherever they are. And parent voice, grandparent voice, it's so vital that they have the opportunity to share. Lots of people see that, you know, lack of engagement sometimes is not positive. But for a lot of Pacific cultures, well, why speak when you don't need to? If you're happy with what's going on, don't read that as, oh look, they're not engaging, they're not tuning up, they're not here.

But look at it positive. Get alongside people. Some of my teachers often say, how can I better engage with my community? How can we better provide, you know. I turn around and I just say, well, have you asked them? You know, have you asked the parent how they want to be connected with? So there's so many. And if, if it can, if whatever you're doing in your school or your institution link back to clear goals and policies and, and, and visions and purposes that make you feel safe, that you just go about your business and just go get it.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: And so you're principal of a primary School, Rowandale School in a south Auckland, how have you been able to engage with your parents and how has, especially in this time of covid, that impact on your community been and how you've been able to keep that engagement high?

Karl Vasau: So what's important is building relationships. And we all know in a Pacific context, you've gotta earn those stripes and you've gotta prove to people that, you know, it's, it's trust, well earned. It doesn't come overnight. So it's, you know, it's hard yards. One thing I will always remember is a lot of my early role models in my life as a teacher, as a student, as a sports player, we're not the same colour as me, were not Pacific. And they had traits that I, you know, I thought, man, are you sure you're not part Samoan or part Niuean, you know, but it was something there that connected.

So I believe any context can succeed in carrying the mana or the tapa of any of our cultures. It's just a matter of, of knowing what's important to you. So for Pacific people, we know what makes us important, and we know the values we taught passed down, generation to generation. People judge us on our grandparents and where they've been. So anybody can learn the skills or the way in which to connect and strengthen relationships, to raise achievement, to move, to shift to gain some advantage.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Dr Cherie?

Dr Cherie Chu-Fuluifaga: Well, I was just thinking as, as Karl was talking, it's interesting that narrative about schools and how they say, oh, how can we engage better with our parents, families and communities? Or actually from a lot of the research, even currently with PowerUp, for example, is that parents are ready and they're willing and they are in positions to like to partake in discussions and conversations. And there seems to be that missing, I suppose bridge in the schools seeing that value or recognising how important or significant it is in creating that groundswell of parent conversation because there's this new emergence of parents who are ready and so I suppose socialized into their advocacy for their young ones. And so I wonder about schools, I wonder about the boards of trustees as well, and their positions of seeing, seeing those conversations is relevant.

Karl Vasau: One voice that came from the lockdown from parents like that was, they just felt helpless. They felt, uh, inadequate because they couldn't provide the tools for their kids to connect. So we had examples of five or six children in a household and their device, when we asked parents, do you have a device, mum tick, the tick was for a little phone that she had that could connect, and all the children had a turn with it. Whereas on the news, you know, you saw these lovely homes with one laptop over there and dad over there on his and mom over here, you know, doing something. And that was not the reality for a lot of our kids. So you are right. They are ready. Also, something that holds them back is their experience of school in the past hasn't been really positive. So they don't really know how to navigate. If you can make it as comfortable as possible for these people, just to be who they are, as long as they want and have five minutes, one hour ambush them at a performance, you know, you can do that. And, and it'll make it a little bit easier for parents to come in.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: And those relationships are key part of that engagement for

Karl Vasau: Big time. And it's, it's real relationships knowing that is good enough. Why do you have to go over and they have a 30 minute meeting of something. That in itself is a connection that we can, you can get the feeling, the vibe, you know, if they're not looking at you, that's another connection. You know, you don't have to get that a hundred percent Western way of, okay, I need to find out how you're going and what's going on in your life. But just that acknowledgement of your position, even when some teachers would say, oh, Mr. Vasau, they just called me by my last name, you know, and I say, well, look, that's like a title. It's a cultural reference. So people don't call me Mr Vasau, they say malo Vasau. They say, you know, and I feel like I'm the man, but you should feel that too. If they call you mom or dad or auntie, yeah. You should be worried. No, but yeah, it's that connection and you'll know you'll get that feeling when it's, when it's real.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Awesome. Dr Cherie, you mentioned PowerUP, which is now Talanoa Ako from that research, what were some key frames around the importance of having community a part of that process?

Dr Cherie Chu-Fuluifaga: I think it comes back to autonomy, and it comes back to having a legitimate say in their children's wellbeing, their children's destiny in terms of their journey through schools and knowing that they can have a relationship with the school in terms of, you know, instilling their own family values and so forth. And I'm just thinking about different methods of how some schools have engaged with parents and communities. And it's like, well, like what Karl's talking about, but also going to their homes and, and talking to them and having coffee and you know, turning up on the street in the neighbourhoods so that the parents don't have to always just come to the school system or to the institution. So there has to be a way of looking at different methodologies and processes of the ways that parents have wanted to engage and be part of school systems. And I think PowerUp has delivered possibilities or opportunities in terms of providing that talanoa or that extra support that schools in some schools have neglected to do through this country.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: And I like that it's about how parents feel comfortable about the engagement rather than schools or the system prescribing that. Melissa, I want to ask you as a mother of two, two young young boys, yeah.

Melissa Lama: Eight and six.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Yeah. Eight And six. What would your experience be around how as a parent you would want to be included in that decision making or co-design?

Melissa Lama: Yeah, I think, so my boys, their dad's Māori, Scottish and his family Muslim converts, and I'm Tongan and my family are very strong Christians. And so my boys have to walk in like many other kids in very different identities and we're very community orientated. So they are the Muslim kids,you know, at the PowerUp at all these other programs. And so it's been interesting trying to navigate that with the community and the school and understanding why my kids don't do certain things. And often I'll tell them, actually, you know, that was talking about cultural competency with me, the school. And I'm like, that's the application process. You know, that's, that's the behavioural things that you can apply to that, but you need to have a, a set of cultural intelligence understanding why your application comes and often I think that's why when we use cultural competency, we really just allow them to just be competent in some cases. And it's just not enough now.

So, we with the school, I'm always in communication, but, you know, I feel quite privileged cause I can communicate that, you know, so often some other parents will just see me and they'll be like, oh, you know, I know they wanna ask me something, you know, I'll go over and they'll be like, oh, can you explain to me this IT form? You know? My son keeps telling me that I had to scan this Q code and, you know, she didn't even have a phone with a camera. So I was like, would you want me to come with you to the teacher? And she's like, oh, I just told her that she had to take this Q code to go into, my family apples and thing, and then she can sign something there. And I said, oh, but have you've seen her phone? She's like, oh, everyone has a phone, no.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: You know, and it was assumption.

Melissa Lama: Yeah. So it's just like regular communication, but as long as they're willing to take that in and walk alongside families and us and educating them this other layer that we bring as a family,  I have time for that, but it's when the door stops at too hard, I'm gonna push through that door.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Yeah. And I love that, you know, the conversation has been around accessibility, equity, access in those things. Ali, did you want to add anything? Yeah,

Ali Leota: I think that's the problem about cultural competency. It's just a flash way of saying ticking a box. And as Melissa highlighted, cultural intelligence and humility. And when I think of schools and education, I mean, a lot of our teachers are on their own, but we don't want them to be on their own. And schools are more than just schools. They're actually communities and obviously with the impacts of COVID-19 and the learnings from it, there's all opportunity to work with our students, but also our communities or families and parents, to navigate how we can best progress forward and just listen to them because at the end of the day, our parents are our experts in their own right and they're there to support our teachers to make sure the best education outcome is achievable for their students.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: And I love what you said that, that schools are not just learning institutions, their communities, and they have expertise and knowledge, that can be, that needs to be valued. And as we bring things together, co-design what it actually looks like, so it, it feels, it looks exactly what the community looks like.

Well, we've come to the end of our time today of our talanoa. I really appreciate what you've all been able to contribute today. Thankful for all of you because of the stories and the experiences and insights that you've been able to share and help shape our discussion today. Fakaaue lahi mahake and we will see you next time at the table.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Today we will be having a talanoa on what the key opportunities are pertaining to the wellbeing of Pacific, what is wellbeing and how do we know we are well. Those are some of the questions we are carrying today at our talanoa at the table. So lets kick off with our first question and can I just say we are matchy matchy today Dr Amanda? Great taste.

Great taste, okay. We are starting with your first question which is you have described that wellbeing is about the mental, physical, financial, cultural, social and environmental all being imbalance, if they are then our Pacific peoples would be mentally well and able to thrive and prosper. Can you share your thoughts on this with us?

Dr. Amanda-Lanuola Dunlop: Thank you Blake. Yes, at Vakatautua we are a national Pacific health and social service provider and we deliver mental health, disability, old people support, social services and financial support. And so every week in Auckland, Wellington and Canterbury, we engage with over a 1000 pacific people a week and when they come to us, they don’t come to us for one thing they come to us for many things because our people have many issues or challenges that they are facing.

So for example, we could have a child with disability who is learning issues, he and his family came through the disability door but then when we got to know the family more we saw that were the Dad had mental health issues, the mum had left the family, they are housing, they are about to lose their house and the rest of the kids were truant from school. And see you see there are a lot of things affecting the family.

And so we were lucky that we had social workers, mental health workers who could help this one family.  And the thing is our people come and they don’t have one issue, they have many and by dealing or helping with all those issues now that whole family, the Father, they are all flourishing and thriving because we took a holistic approach to them and also help them with their financial issues. So I think it is a true academia to say you need to look at the whole, everything to imbalance it is a true reality of what’s happening out there in our Pacific communities.

Vakatautua, we are very fortunate that we have that whole range of services that no matter what door our community come in whether it be disability or financial, we can help the whole family and their health and wellbeing to thrive and prosper. And one of the greatest things that I am very proud of is during the second COVID lockdown in South Auckland, we actually started a 0800 Pacific help line, 0800 o le leilei, in 5 languages so you know the thing was if you are anxious, if you are worried or if you are stressed, give us a call and we can help you. And the calls that we had coming they were financial, they were immigration, they were housing, they were some kids who there was some social problems going on in the house.

So that is showing that for health and wellbeing for our community, it’s not just one thing there is many things and so for our communities, our people and our young learners to thrive and prosper we need everything to be imbalance and everything well for them to go forward. And I think, you know health and wellbeing it’s not just in education, it’s not just an education thing, it’s not a health thing, it’s a whole societal thing. You know, everyone has to do their bit and their part to help our communities to thrive and prosper.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: I really like that as a beginning that defining wellbeing as a holistic thing, it’s not just one good thing and it’s kind of like juggling balls I guess and trying to keep that going. In terms of COVID19, that obviously has brought wellbeing to the forefront to a lot of people’s minds in terms of making sure that people are okay in many different ways, in your experience have you seen that shift and from that experience have you seen new ways of working and new ways of engagement?

Dr. Amanda-Lanuola Dunlop: Oh, definitely. I think we had to. COVID highlighted what we already know, the issues that are happening in our community. You know, there is all the inequalities and inequities but what COVID did is highlighted for the rest of New Zealand to see. But it also encapsulated the issues for us, so all of us health providers and service providers had to step up, had to respond to our communities because we have never seen such need and so it was actually a real blessing to go through that because all of the sudden when people were staying in their lane and just protecting their own territories, everyone came together. It’s like the person, it’s a Pacific way, we always put the people first and work around them but it was like all of government, all of the communities actually focused on the person and the families and how they can support it.

I think while it was very hard for us Pacific, the wonderful thing is all of government actually looked at and said we all need to muck in and we all need to support and look at the people as supposed to keeping in our own lanes. So it was actually a wonderful thing and I think New Zealand learnt real lessons from that and we are still carrying on. Well, up in South Auckland we had four lockdowns, three lockdowns in the last six months so we have had to keep moving in this way but I think the blessing is New Zealand has learnt that for health and wellbeing you really do need to take a whole societal, whole family approach which is really a Pacific way of doing. So I think it has been a wonderful positive if we had to look at COVID for our Pacific people.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: The true team, one team of five million aye? Yeah, Pacific way. Should have added quoted that in the Pacific way.

Dr. Amanda-Lanuola Dunlop: Yeah, it is the Pacific way. Now we will just make it the New Zealand way.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Awesome. Galumalemana, as a Principal of an intermediate school, how was your experience in terms of wellbeing during that period?

Galumalemana Pelu Leaupepetele: I guess if we go back a step, so pre-COVID, our approach has always been two words that stick out, first one is the connections. The connections need to be genuine, authentic so that our families feel that there’s a trusted space that they could, you know, be a part of and then also looking at the staff. It was about for us, the staff need to be need to when they go home. And that’s really important to us in terms of wellbeing.

Going through COVID, we discovered that we were the first or initial contact and so you know we had to make sure that communication was consistent and the families knew that they were supported throughout the whole COVID experience because there were a lot of uncertainties I guess about COVID and for some of our families, the check in times which we did quite a bit of, we discovered that there were some families in very vulnerable situations. And if we couldn’t support them then it was about us seeking the external agencies that could offer that support but I guess it was about creating that space was essentially important. And it was a pat on the back I guess that we had families feel that they could come to us first and that trust was established before COVID.

Lemalu Silao Vaisola-Sefo: So, just to add to what Dr. Lanuola mentioned, the one of the things we learnt during COVID was around the relationships, not just between the trusted providers and the families but also amongst the providers so that was one thing that really stood out for us anyway. Last year and again the start of this year is that you got to rely on that and I think it was mentioned before is that families they trust the schools and they trust those you have been there over twenty years. So that’s their first point of contact and I guess the pleasing thing through COVID is that we managed to work together. I mean, as a health provider, we would never work with an education provider before. It’s always usually sticking to your lane. However, during COVID all those barriers were taken down because the need was actually families, not it wasn’t so much in the providers anymore. So our experience it’s really been based on trust and we are hoping to build on that going forward.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: That’s really awesome. Similar to what you were saying Dr Amanda around that the walls came down and everyone came together and I think in one of our other panels we talked about that schools are communities rather than just learning institutions which is a really good base to begin from. Dr Karlo?   

Dr. Karlo Mila: Well, it just made me think about how relationships are the sight of all healing really. Connected, connectedness is just so vital and important. And it is exciting to see the va between all the providers working and I say when we come down to individual level as well that’s where all the wellbeing is sitting, in the va.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: That is a great lead into your question that you brought here at the table. It’s around unconditional acceptance, the absolute importance of acceptance of belonging and connections between learners and their own ethnic group. Can you share with us a little bit more about what that unconditional acceptance is and how we can grow and strengthen in our community?

Dr. Karlo Mila: Sure, so when I was doing my Phd, about a thousand Pacific students answered some question around health, wellbeing and suicidal attempts. And what we did is we ran the numbers to see what would strengthen them around being less likely to make suicidal attempts and so we looked at being fluent in languages and there was no association. We looked at whether they were relatively financially well off and that you know being wealthy and rich had no relationship. And then we looked at unfortunately looked at going to church and spirituality also had no relationship. Yeah, I know that was a bit confronting and then we looked at if you were say Samoan and you were proud to be Samoan and say Samoan values was still important to you, 50% less likely to do a suicide attempt but the stand out that stat for me, so if you were Tongan and you felt accepted by other Tongans and by others, 70% less likely to commit suicide attempt.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: It feels like that peer pressure and the pressure of your peers is that really important part of the process?

Dr. Karlo Mila: Yeah, I think so but like they are very general right so if you were a young Tongan child and you felt accepted by your Tongan community genuinely as Tongan and then just with others you feel accepted by others that’s way beyond the scopes of peer groups. That’s everyone that you’re encountering and what was really sad was that less than half of New Zealand born Pacific population actually did feel accepted in both scenarios right, in both worlds which to be speaks of a really challenging environment to grow up in for our young people. And I mean quite a few of us are New Zealand born and we know what it’s like to move between two worlds whereby rules change and what’s appropriate changes and kind of like adapting behaviour and stuff.

But I guess for me that really signalled that accepting, connected, unconditional relationships especially from us to our own is so important because we can’t really control others right. Like what palagi society, whether there is gonna to be like conscious bias and all the rest of it. But we ourselves, especially as parents can really go out of our way to be as accepting as possible recognising that they are growing up in quite tough conditions and often without the socioeconomic resources that other people buffer themselves with because largely you know what our stats are saying. So I guess its old fashioned but ofa, alofa, ofa, aloha just deep compassion and unconditional acceptation is actually at the wellspring of our young people being mentally resilient and emotionally resilient.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: That is quite an unlikely thought to think about that that is to think about a basic thing like we think about with a quite complex solution but when if you think going to the grassroot of values.

Dr. Karlo Mila: And the relationship of acceptance because there is covered longtitundal study that is…

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: I feel like you’re a walking….

Dr. Karlo Mila: I know I know, it’s a bit of a worry. It shows that the fundamental factor in wellbeing across lives, health like hardcore health and not just emotion wellbeing is the quality of relationships. And yet, you know it’s these healthy relationships that make us healthy and fundamental and I feel like our ancestors totally knew this yeah.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Its going back to the old ways..

Dr. Karlo Mila: It really is to va, to relating in ways that tau the va, tau he va and I feel like when the Harvard longtitundal studies is saying that then if we reorient to our relationships healthy and I guess, cause I’m a parent to three Pacific boys what I can take care of is my relationship with them and make it as accepting as possible and even if they are coming that they are devasted that they got dentation and its like I’m here for you, you know? And like your self-worth is not determined by that, you know, I got you, you know?

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: – Warm buzzy feeling inside

Dr. Karlo Mila:– Mafana.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Mafana, ia malo. Lemalu, your organisation South Seas Healthcare did quite a number of things around that same space, do you want to share?

Lemalu Silao Vaisola-Sefo:- Around youth, I actually totally agree. Our bubble gum group they sort of last year they reached out to about 25,000 young people. Same thing came through, yes laptops for education from home was important but it was around that connection that they actually wanted too because I think for them lockdown gave them time to reflect, not just the young people but also relationships at home because they are not going anywhere. So, you’re stuck…

Dr. Karlo Mila: Yes, it is confrontational.

Lemalu Silao Vaisola-Sefo: Yes, yes, like health like diabetes is important, getting laptops for zoom and that, that was important but the main thing that came through was connection. They wanted to actually connect to other other peers so that was one of the main things that came through and again is that sort of is that mental health thing that came up quite a bit. Before you talk about the education, it was all the other bits and pieces so that was our experience last year, so that came through.  

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: That’s cool. I actually saw my family during the lockdown like really strengthening that. I was seeing them through the window as I was working from home so that was really great.

Galumalemana, from an education context – what was your experience, you teach intermediate kids, around what 11 to 12 year olds?

Galumalemana Pelu Leaupepetele: I think for us if we are talking about COVID and the le va was is critical in that space but it was also working with the families and being realistic. So in some households, the priority wasn’t education, you know, and we had to realistic about that because the pressure was about how am I going to feed my family and so for us it looked like the expectation was minimised compared to most schools where they tried to run a full day, you know? So for us, the check in, maintaining that connection was more important and conversations around learning probably priority number 3 or 4 or 5. And it comes back to us if we know our families really well and if we established and created that va, we know what priority is when having that discussion around education. So priority was just checking in with the families.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: That is simple things but really important things. Amanda, any thoughts?

Dr. Amanda-Lanuola Dunlop: I just pick up some thoughts on Karlo’s because my PhD is in similar in terms of behaviour and how to change behaviours and culture is really important and definitely culture how Pacific you are, how assimilated you are, that influences your health and wellbeing and definitely subjective norms of what other people think about you or how you respond to that. That influences how you accept, you know, important health messages and mental health messages. So I think you know we can’t look at Pasifika all as one. When we look at the different social cultural, financial, there is also within in how culture impacts on that and how cultural you are cause we have Samoans who are very cultural and those who are more New Zealanders, so its understanding where people are and their place and as you said and then it is about looking at how you support them to be well and thrive. So you can’t look at everyone as a Pacific or as a Samoan, there’s grey ends within there.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: So our next question goes to Lemalu. Malo Lemalu.

Lemalu Silao Vaisola-Sefo: Malo.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: The question you have brought at the table is sharing us, can you share with us the impact of COVID19 on your families in South Auckland and how South Seas Health Care have responded?

Lemalu Silao Vaisola-Sefo: Yeah, thank you. So I think similar to what Amanda was saying all the issues that have always been there, what happened last year really sort of brought that upfront. We’ve been around for 22 years South Seas, we’ve always traditionally had just a medical but in the last maybe 10 years we have expanded to social services. And last year really sort of tested our services so we were asked to set up a testing station in Otara. And I guess the good thing about that was the testing station was based in Otara, it was accessible for people. 17 weeks, we, I think we swopped about 10,000 people.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: I was one of those 10,000 people, by the way. I think I was one of the first.

Lemalu Silao Vaisola-Sefo: Well, there you go. So 70% were Pacific, it was we swopped the largest number of Pacific in New Zealand and it goes to show that before you wouldn’t normally have such a you know a big thing in Otara. But I guess the thing is when you move it closer to community, they came through and we’ve also set up during COVID a youth space and that’s what I mentioned before we reached out to 25,000 young people and they had an event and it’s that sort of before we wouldn’t really worry about, not so much worry about youth but it’s that whole wellbeing thing. We started off as medical centre, but then other people need other bits and pieces. So we had the food bank for example, so people will come through the testing station to get swopped and then they ask about other things and they said where can we go to get food support and we would say go to this place but they came back they couldn’t because the criteria was so tight so we had to stand up a food bank to support these families.

But it comes down to then also, not everything is gonna  be done by a provider like South Seas, so we reached out to our partners and one of our partners was  Vakatautua around the mental health and around financial support so for us our experience is we had to make things easier for families to access. All those criteria, all those referral criteria pathways we had before were actually a barrier. This is just making sure that any doors whether it was through Vakatautua or it’s through the clinic or its through a church or a sports club, we our responsibility was removing all the barriers for these families during these difficult times.

So we’ve learnt a lot as an organisation of how to work with other organisations but I think the that key thing and it was mentioned before the thing that I saw coming through strongly from our communities wasn’t about money wasn’t it about, it was that actually that the values and that system is what really got us through. And in the last, probably in the last 12 months, because you see communities coming together. I mean they came through to collect food parcels and they said how they can help and we said stay in the car and drive off okay? But it was, they wanted to help, they wanted to. And this was during level 4. So it’s that sort of, it’s that’s what I think got us through last year.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: And you know, I think that is a cool Pacific way that you know even if we are not the riches but when we are in position to help other people that is a priority to us.

Lemalu Silao Vaisola-Sefo: It is that natural, it’s a natural thing that we always had that we have defaulted back to. You know, we’ve had you know we’ve services sort of that they limit their delivery during that time for whatever reason but the, our experience, we saw the community providers NGOs really stepped up and really led this for Pacific in South Auckland so it’s something we have to do going forward.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Ia malo, as a resident of South Auckland just want to say thank you cause I see your services in action every day in our community and I wanted to point out what you said about access and how important is access and that access being visibility of knowing because a lot of people don’t know what it means to be, you know, well and then they have to navigate, like you talked about and mentioned the barriers and things like that. In terms of access, can you tell us a little bit more about how that you’ve designed, pretty much codesigned or developed that approach?

Lemalu Silao Vaisola-Sefo: Yeah, so it’s really one of those things where I think if you go back to why we don’t normally focus on those things it’s through the systems designed that way. But that design sort of went out the window during times it was really needed and it was interesting because we have always said that this is the need of our people, but the systems designed to deliver this. So but the most impact you get is the stuff that is not I guess funded for.

So it is most important we think – exactly what you talked about – stuff that really matters that would make the difference in terms of wellbeing doesn’t get recognised enough for our Pacific people but the stuff that we are contracted to do in as our day to day lives it’s this; how many people, how many sessions did you have. Yes, that is important but its interesting the biggest impact that I think to Vakatautua, is that all the really natural stuff like alofa, the values got us through but we sort of abandoned our BAU just to do that and we’ve had to do that.

Dr. Amanda-Lanuola Dunlop: And I think the exciting thing, just building on Lemalu is there’s being from COVID, there has been a real shift, its not only about access but it’s about choices that no matter where our Pacific people go they have access but also choices of services and that its not just one choice but many choices that wherever they go there will be something that they need or help they need they will be able to find it. And that’s whether it can be with a Pacific provider or a non-Pacific provider cause some of our people do access mainstream agencies and so a lot of our work has been about how do we help them build up mainstream agencies so they are a real choice for our people if they are going there and that they will be looked after and cared for.

Lemalu Silao Vaisola-Sefo: Yeah, and I think its…...one of the and I’ve said this before is having more doors open for families so it is a rule in primary care unless you’re enrolled with South Seas or a general practice you can’t access services. Which to me that’s a bit silly but if you have another door through a different provider that’s another access point for families. So these are a lot of support but we got to remove the barriers for people to access those services.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Funny, how you have connected that access relates to the system and the systems are the things that we build and sometimes there are good intentions there but actually not the way of engaging.

Dr. Karlo Mila: Or we haven’t built the systems and that’s what’s wrong. Like they need to be dismantled, so it’s really exciting. They’re not even serving you know mainstream to a large degree without wanting to name drop, having written the Pacific report for the mental health inquiry like the entire like everyone is upset with that system. It needs to be dismantled and the points of innovation are coming from Pacific peoples and from Whanau Ora and the ways in which is really natural to us – I really love that we are natural – and is what people are finding healing and even the palagi people are wanting Whanau Ora because it actually works and it does require dismantling of a system that is not serving anyone well.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: And are you seeing that shift in becoming better?

Dr. Karlo Mila: I’m just really excited because its so hard to move systems. It is so gradual, and you can have amazing bits of innovation like I can imagine in your intermediate but then there is this big grinding thing and the thing about COVID is that it’s just blown it all up. Yeah, so all of the sudden and then your natural instinct to work cooperatively, the communities to come from their heart has helped us phenomenally and you can see those other countries that are competitive and individual only are really in trouble. I am quite proud of our country actually in that sense.

Galumalemana Pelu Leaupepetele: Yeah, I think when we talk about the  systems, we would be an outcome in terms of the families coming to us first or if it’s too hard to be easily accessible so it’s coming back to us.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: And I think sometimes there is cultural you know that cultural relationship because in the sense that we may be too whakama or ma to come to the school where our kids go and all these associations but maybe a social provider where we don’t really almost third part we could access.  Galumalemana, in terms of your intermediate and in terms of access for parents, do they have a natural tendency to come to you or have you done new initiatives or ideas that you have down or practiced that to help improve that space?

Galumalemana Pelu Leaupepetele: Yeah, we are a strong believer where, yeah sure we have a team of five million, as Aunty Jacinda was, put across and broadcast and that. And but for us we what we discovered, and I think it was two weeks going into level 4, that we have some very vulnerable families and we felt it was our own personal obligation to help out our families that we serve. So in terms of an initiative that we called K Bubble, bubble being the word that was used to keep in your bubble and K for Kedgley. And I just put it out there in a zoom meeting to the whole staff and they were very proud we were able to support families with our own sort of food baskets. And say listen when we look at what’s on the news and what we hear, the lines and queues are quite full on. We just wanted to hey listen we will make the drop off on that.

So post COVID, K Bubble continue and it’s just money from our staff. I got myself and staff members who have cancelled funding worldwide organisations and decided to just fund and serve our communities and we’ve had some families who are appreciative of what they have received, and we have been able to sustain it and we will continue to sustain it because we believe that the communities within a community need to sort of help first before we start going outside the community and that.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Let’s start with our next question, Galumalemana. The question you have brought to the table is what priority do you place on staff and student wellbeing and how do you do this?

Galumalemana Pelu Leaupepetele:– Yeah, thank you Blake. For us, it’s about student and staff, their wellbeing being brought to the forefront. And that’s essential for our leadership team in our thinking and our vision. In order for our teaching and learning because that’s what you call business in the school, to be effective, wellbeing needs to be fundamental concept and I think the panel here have really touched on it. For us, how that looks like in our school  in particular we have what is the essence at Kedgley intermediate, Lalanga and the reference to weaving and like any relationship it is not simple, hence the weaving is also not simple and we spoke about the va, if it’s done correctly the values, Pasifika values that we would love to see come out of the relationship is that trust, is that respect, empathy, passion and whole lot of love, you know, just to name a few.

So how that looks for us is basically all staff including our property manager, our executive officer, have a group of children that they work with three times a day so first half hour of the day through Monday, Wednesday and Friday, it is lalaga time. When we invest in the relationships with the group of children that we spend time with. So I have a group of twelve kids and the first 6 weeks this year will be just about really trying to develop and establish that space and grow that authentic and genuine relationship. The result for us because it’s not a programme because it’s what we do at Kedgley Intermediate.

The result after its fifth-year introduction for example last year or five years ago, we had a record of 22 stand downs, too high for my liking. Last year recorded, 3 stand downs and in those 3 stand downs 2 of them were from one child in particular. It’s just beautiful to see it and its one of those things you actually need to be there to see it. The turn of the school and to go back to what is highlighted here the connections, our families feel they could come knocking on our front door with a little ma and say hey listen, you know, something is not right and we need support and we may not have the answer but at least we can tap into the external providers and say well this is where you can be and so is for us that wellbeing is essential, lalaga is something that is key at our school and if I go back even further with national standards we had this beautiful document the NZ curriculum, however national standards just really sort of contradicted and our focus was basically on getting a score and putting and boxing kids in this school rather than at the front of the curriculum where the focus is around the child holistically and that’s what makes our curriculum so beautiful compared to any curriculum in the world.

Post national standards we have been able to do that and I’m hoping there are schools who are focusing more on the front of the curriculum where the wellbeing and the essence of the child and just trying to get that balance as Amanda highlighted at the beginning because it is important that we get that right. And very important with the emerging adolescents.  

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: That sounds beautiful, lalaga – weaving - so it’s been running for five years – five

Galumalemana Pelu Leaupepetele: five years, yeah.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling:And how long is that lalaga time with students?

Galumalemana Pelu Leaupepetele: 30 minutes and for me it’s quite fluid. So I lost staff over this since its introduction. The first two questions I got on teacher only day when I spoke about it, one question do we get lesson plan? My answer was no because the moment we need a lesson plan to connect with another human being, we need to ask ourselves are we in the right role, you know? The second question that was asked and I know I lost staff over this was so why the support staff? And my response was well unfortunately, well not unfortunately but I had support staff who connect far better than teaching staff, you know?

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Did you say that line exactly?

Galumalemana Pelu Leaupepetele: Yes, exactly. Hence the reason why I probably lost staff over that but you know at the end of the day it was this is the whaka and this is where we want to take it and we are going to put the wellbeing and the child holistic first. And I want people who are going to basically connect and invest and some staff have learnt a lot about themselves because like any relationship I’m no Dr Phil okay but you have to be vulnerable sometimes and sometimes as human beings we love putting forward or performing to our title as a teacher where we are flawless in the eyes of the student and especially in your young students so they had to sort of open up that they make mistakes, I’m not going to get it right. Lalaga is also fluid, so my lalaga lesson looks totally different from to the teacher next door or the property manager, who, our property manager does any amazing job. And the kids you know the tone of the school is very special, very special. Yeah, yeah.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: It sounds like a real beautiful thing and to see that. Man I admit I want to be lalaga to one of your staff and learn and develop.

Galumalemana Pelu Leaupepetele: Monday, Wednesday and Friday buddy.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Monday, Wednesday and Friday, I’ll be there. I think it probably even would be good to do that in organisations in a different way and shape but just having that space to build those relationships. Dr Amanda, do you have any thoughts?

Dr. Amanda-Lanuola Dunlop: No, I just love hearing about your initiative. Definitely as a community NGO, relationships is the basis of our whole job, if we didn’t have relationships with our communities and the people we serve with other providers then we wouldn’t be able to do our job. So, you know, it’s about having those strong connections and the trust and it’s that real Pacific thing you know? We know the whole life stories of our people that we serve, and they come to us because they trust us and they know.

And once we get that trust and it takes a while as Silao said, outside the scope of what we are funded to do but that’s what’s important. To really make a difference and really help our communities be well and stay well and so once we get that trust then we can move on to the what’s the issues, what’s the problems because we wouldn’t be able to get to that if we don’t have those strong connections. I think we all do it naturally because we serve with a heart, that is our pacific way but as we were discussing before because of COVID we are showing New Zealand to really make a difference to peoples lives and this is how we should all be working and engaging with another if we really want to make a difference to people to help them thrive and prosper and to be well and stay well.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Dr Karlo, I was thinking about lalaga and how it talked a little bit about the improvement has been or the shift is around that connectedness in relationships.

Dr. Karlo Mila: Yeah, its really interesting. Two Tongan proverbs are coming to me, one of them is anu tahi which means soaked deep and sea deep in problems and you know when you feel like that and I just can see that you can all see that when people are under water there’s no learning taking place right, there’s no diabetes checks actually in a way and then the other proverb is and fe'ofa'aki 'a kakau which is the love of swimmers which is the idea that when your whole family is…..

collapser

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Today we will be having a talanoa on the key opportunities facing our Pacific communities. Our community is so diverse and so widespread across Aotearoa and so let’s start off with our first question to Hana. Malo Hana.

Hana Halalele:  Talofa lava and mālō e lelei.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: And so the question you have brought here to at the table is around the urgency to strategically build local Pacific capability and capacity. What is Pacific capability and how do we build it?

Hana Halalele: That’s a really good opportunity, just to talk about ways that we can build and to support our Pacific people to diversify our workforce. In Oamaru, our Pacific community is growing very rapidly so I think it’s really important that we strengthen those eco systems and actually broaden our natural Pacific social systems and incorporate things in the community that we may not necessarily be used to accessing and also asking for support from local counsels as well in terms of how do we support and strengthen our wellbeing and those opportunities.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: So we know Oamaru is popular, is famous, I mean during the MMT phase of the world, there was a big and we thought it only existed to Otahuhu but actually there was another red sea or red flags in Oamaru, but I know it’s also diverse down there. Before you became District City Councillor, how was it in terms of the population in trying to strengthen and bring them together cause its quite diverse down there isn’t it?

Hana Halalele: It is diverse, my family have been living there since mid-80s so back then there was only a handful of Pacific families, so it was very easy for us to work together. There were a small handful of Tongan families, 1 Cook Island family, 1 Tokelau family and a couple of Samoan families.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: I love how you’re just counting them…

Hana Halalele: I’m like have I included everybody? But over the years like as we were growing up, probably over the last 10 years the population has significantly grown. So I think it is really important that we build our social infrastructure to help support those opportunities.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Fa’anānā, you’re also a community councillor from a different part of and you come from Auckland and that is the centre of the universe for some for Pacific people, what are your experiences around that building capability?

Fa’anānā Efeso Collins: I think when we started the point where we know there’s a lot of capability that we have to offer, you look at the kind of the things we are talking about today, we are talking about things like soft skills. We have that in troves. Māori and Pacific people have the soft skills that we need for the workforce today so it’s about how we enhance it, how we encourage our families to feel like they can be confident in bringing those skills forward. And I think we got to shift slightly the narrative for what’s been a western driven narrative for a long time where they will start appreciating that our skills are the skills that the workforce needs.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: What are some of those soft skills? Because I’m just thinking, am I soft? Is that why you’re...

Fa’anānā Efeso Collins: Yeah. Well, I think you’re an excellent example, you’re working at the Ministry and today you’re the TV host. The communication skills that you’re putting forward are the soft skills that we need. We need a base of people who come through the system who are bilingual, multilingual, who are able to operate in different spheres of society. That’s what soft skills look like. We don’t just say right you’re going to become an engineer and that’s the one course you take. We need people who can communicate at different levels, and I think you’re an example of it. Hana’s question is about, well look at how diverse her experiences are, councillor, GM, all of that but we don’t say “wow”, we say “yeah cool” that’s what’s expected of you as a Pacific person.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: And I think there must have been a shift from that, from our early migrants who have come here to where we are today having two people on very powerful and influential roles.

Sai Lelea: My take on the issue of capability, I think that its first understanding that there is elements of capability and what are those that are inherently part of who we are as Pacific, you know? And yes, yes it is the soft stuff but it’s also the less valid stuff as well. So, it is the culture, you know? Our understanding of diverse issues so on and so forth, you know? Our relationship, knowledge and strength. Those are not necessarily appreciated, so the challenge for us as part of our capability development, how is it that we can develop those.

At the end of the day, the test of it nevertheless is can it be utilised in a way that dissolves where our actual wellbeing is needed. And that’s the reality test and at the end of the day it’s about the context that we live in New Zealand. You know, the kind of capability that we need in the village, is much much different of course. You know, we’re in the advent of the digital age, that’s very much a big topic. So I think, you know, it’s important to stop to think in those terms.   

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: You know Sai because some of our other panels have discussed that, the importance of language, culture and identity but also about that gap of not valuing what those skills are, even though we’re asked to perform welcomes, you know, departures but it should be more than that, you know?

Sai Lelea: Yeah, I feel it might be answered in my question because, you know, I’m gonna cover that but you know, as Dr referred to as appreciating, you know, I will talk a bit about that in my question. In terms of appreciative approach, appreciate inquiry, which is about valuing the positives, you know? It’s not about the negatives which is in the kind the rational approach to understanding problems and issues. You know, it’s about diagnosing what’s wrong, what’s deficient, you know. That’s not what we are about, we should be about understanding what’s our strength and exactly as you’ve said building on it and improving on it.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Sose, as a Principal of a Primary School in Porirua. What are your thoughts on that building capability?

Sose Annandale: I really strongly feel, you know, our ability to make connections and exactly everything that all the other panellists have said are things that I have tried really hard to drive amongst the community that I work in, not just with my school but across. It’s actually that whole thing that Sai just said about valuing their contribution because too much we have these barriers and we need to break down those barriers, see the worth of our people and what they have to actually gain, because there’s no, no, no person I’ve met Pasifika or otherwise that actually doesn’t want their children to succeed. But how do we engage them?

Now I’m getting into my question, but you know that’s the challenge. The challenge is that we have this amazing ability to make connections and often we will be relied on by our professional colleagues to be the one that brokers that connection in certain affairs but then suddenly other bits of it is not our domain. So we need to actually ensure that those relationships are strengthened and that we bring forth those connections that we have the ability to make and get the best out of them. And I absolutely believe that we have all of the skillset we need and our kids do. So what happens to them? What happens to those bright kids that I have at my school that suddenly are dropouts in year 11, you know? I just…it upsets me cause there is so much ability out there and I don’t think we as a system are getting the best out of it.  

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: I love the importance of those connections and relationships.

Sose Annandale: And relationships with business. Relationships with the other organisations and business in general and how we are brokering that and how we are making sure that our kids are recognised for the skills and talents they have so that they can go on into different areas. The areas they choose for their career.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: So the question you brought here today is around the important part of supporting learners to succeed, how can we engage Pacific parents, community in our schools and learning centres and then build upon this to respond to their needs?

Sose Annandale: So you know to me there are some fundamental things that we need to do as educators and I can talk for early childhood, I actually taught in early childhood for about 7 years but also in the primary area. That is to actually acknowledge that our parents are more than just making chop suey in Samoan language week, yeah. So for me as a leader of learning in the school, the challenge has always been how to get them past the gate, how do we break down those gates and get them in the school? And so one of the things I did as a teacher in the school was to actually go to the Principal at that time, I was a senior leader but I went to the Principal and said “look, there’s these amazing maths resources we can make. We have the CD-ROM, but can I have some money to engage some parents to come in?”  Because I know I had a lot of parents that weren’t engaged and would just drop the kid at the door or at the gate and then leave.

So that was the beginning of an amazing journey for me because suddenly I realised, well I already knew it, but the rest of the school realised that how amazing it was. There were about 10 Tokelau mums, and they were the main ones at that time in the school that actually came in. From that one engagement, I think we spent 2 days making resources and all it cost the school was, you know, some lunch. What an amazing connection because once they did that, not only did they join but all the other different communities were suddenly in the school and were wanting to be part of the learning, not just the chop suey making or the panipopo making but actually there for the learning.

And so for me, you know, that was huge turn but at that time I was not the Principal so there were limitations on certain things we could do but as soon as I became the Principal I just busted that all down. I talked a lot about our values as a Pasifika with the team, talked mainly about tautua, our service and would also refer to us as being in service of the community rather than the community receiving a service from the school or education from the school.

And I think that for us we are all challenged to do this in a way that is respectful to our parents because I’m not gonna make assumptions and use my teacher talk when I’m with my parents but I’m not gonna make an assumption that my parents don’t know anything about how we teach maths or look there’s all these ESOL stuff going on so therefore we won’t expect them to do the reading at home or a certain type of reading at home because they won’t have the capability. And totally took me a few years as the Principal, it took me maybe about 3 to 4 years to really work on changing the pedagogy for teacher but also changing, we call it flip the script, yeah, to have to flip the script from thinking in a negative way or what are parents can contribute to actually then being whole people, scientist, you know, when I point out that actually our people made it here to Aotearoa, how do you think they got here, you know the maths that goes into that, you know.

I had a caretaker; he made a hexagonal table built in chairs for the staff. One year, I just said do this over the Christmas holidays and he says and I’m thinking I have to go get him a map, plan, this is my thinking, I’ll tell that’s the truth. He says no no Sose, show me the picture, I go Google tables, I go for that simple, you know, oblong that rectangular one with the two chairs, he picks the hexagonal one and he says I make the picture, I make that one. When the staff came back honestly, even the Ministry people would come in they were blown away and as I said to the staff, they knew our caretaker well, he didn’t have a lot of English, they were just blown away. He made it from that picture. What did that, what did I talk about? I talked about all the maths in that, I talked about the language in that, I talked about his visual skills and ability to build that. And then I pointed out to them because he wasn’t a father in our school but I pointed out to him and this guy has children and how do you think the other school is going to welcome his skillset or how did they acknowledge that his skills to do this job. Yeah.

Sai Lelea: Yeah. I think what our sister is talking about its quite familiar to some of us, the mindset we have as Pacific people. I grew up in an age where a school learning and education is what happens at school. Families and communities take care of your other needs so when your mum and dad say goodbye, you go to school and it’s their, it’s their responsibility. So there’s no idea that for them to be part of environment in which their child or their children experience everyday while they are learning. I mean that’s the real challenge for us, how do we, you know, engage and be part of the system and some schools are good at it and it’s great to see, you know, it’s happening but we need just, not at that level right to the leadership part of the school. The governance, the school of trustees and stuff like that.

It's an ongoing issue for us, but the key nevertheless is about ongoing participation, you know, with schools, not just and I must say for my community, the Fijians, you know, a lot of standing back and just expecting the school to take care of things. So your job, your responsibility as a parent is to make sure they come home they got food, they got a shelter so on and so forth. So slowly, you know, I’m grateful for programmes like Talanoa Ako. It’s about empowering families to be part and in parcel of the learning journey of their children. Not just, not part, not just sending them to school and then just waiting for the, you know, the school report or you know, something they tell us wrong to be summoned to school so to speak.

Sose Annandale: Absolutely!

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: And I think of that shift you’re talking about, there is that roles and responsibilities helping parents understand that, especially during COVID, a lot of our parents with you know, their traditional the teacher, the school and then the family and then the home. It became oh no now I am the educator because you know, there won’t be a, unless you zoom through to your teacher. So there’s that shift and change around on what that looks like but also what you’ve mentioned Sose around not valuing the indigenous knowledge that our parents have, grandparents have that we often overlook because they don’t have formal education qualifications but they actually have a richness expertise and skill.

Sose Annandale: And I think what we are seeing in our communities, like in our own family we are on our third generation. So for me, the next part of that challenge was how, because not everybody had a positive experience at school. So we are talking here at this table, we’ve probably masters over here so, I’m probably the least qualified person at the table but what I wanted to say about that is they, they for me have been the challenge. Is actually our young New Zealand born parents, you know?

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: And that’s not the first time.

Sose Annandale: Because they haven’t had a particularly positive experience at school, who knows what that is. But once again comes down to our connection and our ability to build relationships. And the real, the onus is really on us as leaders of schools to ensure that happens. And you know, I’m really privileged this year to be part of a programme Tautai o le Moana, where I am working in schools with high pacific population, not necessarily a Pasifika Principal such as myself but actually helping them look through a Pasifika lense. First thing I do when I go to a school, do I see myself here? This is the first question, you know? It is a meet and greet so I’ve been to see the Tautai 2021 and I go in and I’m like is ERO coming, no ERO is not coming but I go in there and my lense is a cultural lense and I look around their offices and I look, go into the Principal’s office because usually its principals office and I think, do I see myself here? So hey, there’s a whole lot of work to do this year. 2021 is going to be a great year. Let’s turn that around.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Flip the script.

Sose Annandale: Yes, lets actually flip the script and help. Because most of our kids are in mainstream school and they do not necessarily have a Pasifika Principal. We can’t, I’d love, that’s about the capability capacity in our community. We can’t all be doctors and lawyers. My mum had me down be the Prime Minister’s Private Secretary. If you knew me, I’d be a terrible secretary, but you know? We need more teachers, we need more people in education at the actual face.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: – Fa’anānā and Hana?

Hana Halalele: Yeah, I think some really good points that have been raised. And it reminds me of Talanoa Ako and the journey that we have taken down in Oamaru. Like this is our third year delivering the session and it really took support from Gabby and Moe and the Team up here, just to give us a shot at delivering this for our community and we weren’t an established group at the time. We were just a bunch of 10 passionate parents that were just pushing for some opportunities to come down South. So we made the most of that and the first year, after the first year, we delivered a really successful programme. The second year we brought other people on board. Some of them were mums from the parent hub and they were helping to deliver some of the hub sessions. So now we are on our third year, and we are just trying to build that capability and that succession plan and creating space for parents to really have a voice and say and encourage schools to shift their mindset that they, we need to do together as a community.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Malo, Fa’anānā?

Fa’anānā Efeso Collins: Yeah, I think that I agree with what everyone is saying. I think we are dismantling a system that; we are dismantling and readjusting aeroplane that is in full flight. And the challenge is, we’ve got passengers on it who aren’t enjoying this ride at the moment because the passengers are diverse. We’ve had one way to do things philosophically, we’ve driven a western education system and its now time for good people like Sose to take over and captain this flight and gives the new direction that is required.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: How important is the community in its design?

Fa’anānā Efeso Collins: I think we have the greatest opportunity today to reimage and redesign the New Zealand schooling system. And one of the challenges we’ve had, because philosophically and sociologically, we’ve got a system that was designed in the industrial area and if you look at the system today, we still put kids in at year 1 when they are 5 years old right up until they are year 13 and 18 years old. And we think, it's like creating a fridge, we put a door on here, we put the shelving in here, screw in the screws and at this point. I think we got to take perhaps a much more a Montessori approach to education. What are the kids interest? How do we follow and build our curriculum around their interests so that their passions come to the fore. How do we take their prior knowledge and their prior learning and engage all of that learning so that they can flourish in the schooling system.

You know in the last discussion, but we talked a little bit, well I said we got an aeroplane that is in the air and we are now moving Sose in front of aeroplane so she can fly the thing because it’s got to be fit for purpose. We got new passengers on this plane, and we can’t keep landing in London because that’s where we keep landing. We keep landing in white areas. It is now time to land this plane in Samoa, in Fiji and in Tonga and build from the capability and the knowledge of the cultural practices that we have. That’s the biggest challenge we have and what we need is the ability of all sorts of policies so that we can prepare our learners, our young people for a world that is going to receive them. And there’s some challenges there but unless we have leadership in the schools then we are not going to get there.

And so my challenge to teachers, our Pasifika people who are thinking of teaching, is don’t just teach. I used to lecture and teach education and I used to meet them all in the lecture theatre. But it’s not just about teaching, it’s about how do I pathway these folk into school leadership to become the principals, to become the heads of faculty because they are ones who are designing the feel and the drive of that school. So I think there’s major opportunity we have but that’s going to be risky and it’s also going to encourage other parts of our society to let go of the power and that’s the biggest challenge that we have at the moment.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: so we’ve talked about things around, you know, NCEA review and other adaptations and changes and updates to the current education system, do you think, how can we better codesign that with parents to have a more responsive curriculum?

Fa’anānā Efeso Collins: So, we’ve talked a little bit about how we engage parents better, but I think we got understand that we’ve got some generations who are missing a few parts here. My parents came and it was leave your kids at school, a teacher comes and deals with them and then we go home. And then now I’ve got children at school and I’m thinking well I’m really involved. I lectured in education, so it makes sense for me to be involved but there is some in my generation and in the next generation, the millennials who feel I had a poor experience at school. I don’t like schools; they represent really funny places for me. And if you were like me and you spent most of your day outside a Principal’s office because I was naughty and because I challenged everything and now I am in politics so it all makes sense. But what we got to do is encourage that level of critical thinking amongst our people and its gonna take time.

My parents would never do what I do because that’s not their style. That’s not how they were raised to treat schools. And so we’ve got to build bridges all the way through. You know, you look at a palagi family, all of, they are often professional parents when it comes to getting the board of the school sorted out. They are already accountants and lawyers and all of it, so it’s easy to access that. The system is built for them, it’s not built for us. And then they ask us to come, and could you do a PLD session over here for 2 hours after school and suddenly our staff are going to be culturally competent. That is a nonsense, and the truth of the matter is, we’ve got to redesign so that Māori, Pasifika, our diversity is at the centre. We’ve always been other’d. It’s now the time for us to be at the centre and the whole system to be built around us because what’s good for Pasifika, I tell you New Zealand you don’t need to worry, its gonna be good for this nation.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Amen. Amen to that. Hana, did you have any thoughts on Efeso’s question?

Hana Halalele: Yeah, no I fully support what he’s been saying and I think its important for those of us at tables to ability to contribute, to policy changes and decision making and we do need to lead the changes that we need to see in our communities and in our country. I think it’s a really important time to step up and do that. And it’s really around sharing that power and equalising that level playing field that was never there in the first place. So we are having to always play catch up all the time, but I mean and I think in terms of our other discussions from the previous questions that we have been talking about. You know, like we already have our strengths and its really important to maximise and leverage our strengths and perspective on how we can support our communities and contribute to what the education system should look like.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: – Malo, Sai?

Sai Lelea: I, you know, co-creation has become quite fashionable these days but in my mind you’re not going to be able to engage in that if somebody, if one part of society is still defining the issues for everybody else, you know. And this is why Efeso’s point is quite relevant. We need to define the issues for ourselves, you know, and that’s about, you know? We controlling the narrative, setting the narrative, okay. Yes, we can cocreate, however, the definition of issues and the topic has been decided by others. Most of the public policy kind of approach, still around the problem issue kind of stuff. What is deficient? What is lacking, okay, in Pacific young people? Not about the problem earlier but what is it their strength? What is that they are good at? What is it that is part of their cultural DNA kind of thing, you know? Their history and stuff. Those are the things, you know, and that’s part of, you know, the reimaging stuff, you know, it needs to be apart of it. And most of the talanoa about education at the moment doesn’t start there, it should start further ahead. So if we can’t really, really engage in cocreation it’s somebody or majority of society defines the issues. Until we get into that which is about our narrative we have to cover in the next part of the…

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: I love how you keep referencing your question.

Sose Annandale: You know, you know part of the thing is, is that we are risk averse. And it comes down to our self-efficacy cause as I said, what happened to that bright, funny, clever 5 year old that rocked into my gate that is suddenly a drop out in year 10 or 11. And now what I do is I go to all of the prize givings and I go to everywhere where the kids go on to, in the college that is. Not just in our own school but obviously in the college and intermediate. I’m always trying to get feedback so we can feed to the staff. And one of the exciting things as I was one off the Tautai for 2020, has one of our ex-students, actually has 3 in there that are really successful, the head boy and head girl are ex students from our school but there is a boy there who took out an entrepreneur award for 2020. He is the Pasifika young entrepreneur and his business. I just can’t remember the name of his project that he did. I happen to, going on that walk, do I see myself here? Go into this room where the child was, the young guy was and he instantly knew, I hadn’t seen him since he left school,  but he instantly knew who I was and we had this connection and then I was told about his story about his amazing achievement. I mean entrepreneur, who would ever think you know?

You know, I told you my mother had me signed up as the Prime Minister’s Secretary,. I never thought would go down the road of teaching. As a matter of fact, I started in early childhood because I didn’t have faith in myself. My own self-efficacy said I couldn’t be a primary school teacher. Let alone a Principal, and really I came to the principalship because there was pressure on me. If you don’t go there Sose, someone else is going to come in and do it to us and I thought there’s the challenge. So I took the challenge up and then I read, you know what I do do? I have made deliberate appointments of Pacific teachers in my school, I tell them straight away the minute they finish their interview, they are only second or first year teacher, Sai you’re coming into leadership so don’t get comfortable in the classroom. Two of them outgrew, one is an assistant principal and is now gone to back to Fiji but the second one, young one, who is there right now, I’ve got two young Pasifika teachers. She’s not only a leader in the school, she leads in the Kahui Ako so she is within school leader so she is actually a leading across schools. And I’ve been really strict about it because I don’t want them to sit and stay cause we don’t have enough Principals. Don’t have enough leaders leading, making, actually in those places your making decisions and able to drive the things that we need for our Pacific learners.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: What’s been really interesting about our conversation, although it is focused on Pacific community has been almost a theme and narrative around the importance of leadership being at the table and influencing from system down. Because I think, sometimes you were talking about how we are being conditioned because of the system around that.

Sose Annandale: Yes, and how we are. The humbleness, our respect, we are not going to challenge Sose, we are not going to challenge Fred, you know, because he’s the Principal. Well actually, you know, Fred’s there and Fred needs to actually hear our voice. And I think, you know, the other thing we talk a lot about our parents, but we need to talk about our children. Where’s our children’s voice because you know, my little sister she was always told yeah you will have the last say because you’re the baby. Actually, she should’ve had the first say sometimes but you know, we need to also look at that and encourage our kids to use their voice to empower them in their journey and their pathway into the, into whatever it is they choose to do with their lives.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Sai, the question you brought to at the table is, is it important to appreciate and capitalise on the inherent learning opportunities and resources that exist in Pacific communities as these natural learning hubs. What are these natural learning hubs and how do we tap into them?

Sai Lelea: Okay, well all our discuss has been on us as peoples and the opportunities to me  lay right there in our communities. And it has to do with our history, our culture, our language okay. Our institutions and you know we haven’t, we’ve been put in a system where we don’t come to realise the potential, they offer okay. And so and we ended up undervaluing it, okay, undervaluing, therefore we don’t, I’m pleased to say that’s changing a bit, alright, because, you know, schools are starting to, you know, engage effectively with our communities and  starting to introduce culture programmes, languages, bilingual, so on and so forth. But not enough because the potential there is huge, absolutely huge. Not just for our Pasifika students but for other New Zealanders. That is my point, we don’t just gain by appreciating, okay, what Pasifika have to offer but wider New Zealand.

Through understanding our culture, our history, our stories and our structure. So how do we deal with those. Well, you focus on those as strengths and you ask the question, well how can we integrate some positive elements of this into the education system, you know. And I’m pleased when I said I’m pleased this change of mindset. I mean, talking about STEM for instance, alright. I mean STEM, our young people run a mile when they hear about science. I was a science student but the explanation about science, you know, you have to have a formula for instance, but we live science everyday in our village, you know. When we constructed canoe and so on, when we navigate our way, you know, it’s about understanding the sky and so on. When we engage in rotational cropping, we never plant one taro in one area, you know, continuously. So all those, these are science, you know, but brown people they don’t regard this science. Everyday kind of living so I’m pleased that courses and subjects like STEM, we are able to introduce that and say hey science is all about that, science is not about, you know, it’s not as complicated as you may think.

And I’m pleased, you know, we are starting to do that and I’m hoping to run a programme for our community exactly on that point. So how do we tap into that. It’s what we have all been talking about. Its about recognising it and valuing it, okay? Valuing is important, if we don’t do it ourselves, who will? Alright, nobody else, okay. And so the pressure to continue to be for us to value, we start to incorporate as part of programmes and start Talanoa Ako, STEM, writers in communities, there’s education into that. So for me, we should be thinking about education as a process of cultural race, something we need to acquire, you know. That’s what education has been, you know, when we come to New Zealand there is culture, something you have to be part of in order to be properly a New Zealander so to be speak, you know.

So, I’m hoping that can start to change, some aspect will start to change and we can start reassert ourselves in the way, in the way that we’ve been talking about. Starting from, controlling that narrative and defining issues for ourselves, not for others. Once we do that, I believe then we can be able to engage effectively in cocreation, okay, and be able to achieve the kind of stuff but I just want to leave on the table some of the challenges, okay, on culture and stuff.

We haven’t talked about that word, discrimination, you know. So let’s, you know, let’s talk about it because it does exist, you know, within the education system within the labour market, you know, it’s a reality, okay. We haven’t talked about that but I think we need to know about it, okay. But you know, we may call it discrimination, others may call it, you know, market segmentation and whatever and other things, you know, but, you know, we need to be able to br strong enough, confident enough to call it what it is because that’s the part, that’s exactly a part of defining the issues is we see it, through the Pacific lense as you were talking about earlier.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Vinaka. Vinaka, Sai. What you had talked about normalising is almost like the solution to the discrimination or racism or market segmentation, is that if you normalise and value culture and Pacific culture, as we are in the context of what we are talking about, hopefully will help influence that less discrimination because everyone understands and everyone knows.

Sai Lelea: We’re one of the most resilient people because we cope with different situations, you know. Look at the hardships we’ve gone through, you know. We cope with anything,okay. But still, I think it’s about time where we learn from that and that is precisely my, why I’m a fan of appreciative inquiry. It is about learning about what you do well, alright, and what is it enables you, what are the principles that guide you to do well. Imaging things that are communities are good at and then work it and improving it or extending it instead of just coming in and say, okay what don’t they have, what are they bad at, you know, we better fix that. And that’s been the kind of narrative you know around the system in New Zealand.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Vinaka, Sose?

Sose Annandale: I totally agree with everything that Sai said. I think you know this whole thing around conscious, unconscious bias, or I’ll just call it racism. Is that sometimes we are narrowed in terms of a direction in a pathway, particularly in secondary school, I will just dump secondary school in there because we need to look for ways

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: None of us are secondary school teachers here so that’s okay.

Sose Annandale: We need to look for ways to actually give incentive and encouragement and belief in ourselves to our children that they can be scientists, you know, that they can be an engineer, you know. And one of the thing, you’re right, this whole concept of formula, all the formulas you have to memorise for chemistry, all the formulas you have to memorise with maths, you know, that’s why we need to look for Pasifika pedagogy that is going to turn that around and one amazing one that you know that I actually fell upon by reading a really small, really thin paper on a research that was done in an Auckland School was developing mathematical and inquiry communities. It was developed by Dr Roberta Hunter, she’s Cook Island at Massey University and its actually problem solving, okay. It’s not like your formulas but its problem solving with a Pasifika context. So it will be like say we were, you know, everyone is coming, you know, to church this week because we are having a huge celebration for white Sunday, so then the problem for the kids may be, so if everybody is coming and so and so families are coming, ooo we are going to have to feed them?

So, they are doing maths in a genuine Pasifika context and solving the problem collaboratively because it’s not streamed, it’s not like we have the top maths group and the low maths group. We mixed ability the group and everybody in the classroom is included. So they come around and we would sit in a group like this, you know, we would be on the mat but we would be sitting in a group, we would have our problem, we would have a piece of paper and whatever materials we may need and we would all be sharing with each other and helping each other solve this problem and then sharing our findings with the group.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: The true village.

Sose Annandale: The true village and we need to be reflecting that right across our system. Why are we just leaving it here in the Primary School, why are we still teaching subjects at Secondary School? Why aren’t we looking at education at a more holistic light as they go on from primary. Yeah.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: I love that, Hana?

Hana Halalele: Yeah, some really awesome points that have been raised and it does strengthen that concept that it does take a village, you know, to raise the children, to raise a community. And it’s good timing that we really speak up and use, you know, like this table, this opportunity to speak out against it. I mentor some the kids at High School and some of them come in and say “I don’t understand science, I don’t understand biology” and I say “Your reference point, you know, is that you’re Pacific, your reference point” but a lot of kids have to leave their identity outside the school gate, so I have a chat with the teachers and they are really on board cause they ae really supportive and I said you need to allow them to bring their culture into the school. Incorporate it as part of their learning as well, so yeah, I think that’s a really important.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Malo, Fa’anānā?

Fa’anānā Efeso Collins: I wonder if the res, the west has reached its absolute limits and they are now turning to the Pasifika communities for the real answers. Look New Zealand fell over itself when they banned plastic bags, we did that in Samoa years ago. So here is New Zealand celebrating something we’ve already doing in the Pacific. You want to talk about climate change, you come to the Pacific, and we are the ones aren’t responsible for all the carbon emissions. It is the wealthy west countries like New Zealand that are responsible.

So, we’ve got to look at the Pacific, we gotta look at our communities for the answers and I’d invite the west, the palagis, the pakeha, who hold the power to let go some of it and to learn what partnership means. We’ve got to take a treaty approach which is about partnership and giving up power is tough because people don’t want to give up because power equal resource. The minute you start giving it up, you’re inviting others to the table. Finally, we have a table we can talk at rather than be eaten at. And I think, this format is really useful to build the discussion.

Blake Silimaka Wong-Ling: Malo, and that’s a really good ending for our talanoa today. We’ve run out of time but thank you once again panel for being a part of todays at the table. Thank you for your personal experiences, your stories, they have deeply enriched our talanoa today. May God bless you and your families to be safe and prosperous. Fakaaue lahi mahaki.